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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:48:30 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Scott Ritter on PBS
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Strong performance by Scott Ritter on PBS News Hour tonight. I
agree that if Sandy Berger et al have done a 180 re pushing for
0 WMDs in Iraq, that they owe it to their constituencies to
come clean and state the new policy, or otherwise risk making a
total mockery of their earlier bluster and flashing of cruise
missile pix on TV.

Of course the record is clear that I was no fan of the earlier
policy either (click URLs below), although I do favor spreading
the regime of webcams and inhouse monitoring (including plenty
of informants), prototyped in Saddam's castles, and now ready
for more consistent implementation on a global basis, where to
this day misanthropic mad scientists hatch their dasterdly plans
to unleash WMDs against innocents.

To just play these anti-WMD games in the Persian Gulf region,
and not Hanford (to take but one example), is to engage in
extreme hypocrisy.  Biochemical and nuclear weapons are a crime
against humanity wherever they occur -- a point so obvious, I'm
not sure why the NSC is afraid to say it loud and clear (how
else to establish an environment of mutual trust and reciprocity
in a post-Cold War economy?).

Fortunately, the monitoring regime _is_ spreading, and WMD
makers are on alert that they're being policed, data about them
shared, recorded for posterity, no matter where they try to
hide.

Thanks to people like Scott Ritter, it's going to be very
difficult to make a profitable career planning the slaughter of
innocents in the next chapter, without someone blowing a
whistle behind your back, and everyone in the world knowing
what infernal fantasies inhabit your sick and twisted mind.
Praise Allah.

Kirby

Abbreviations:
NSC  = National Security Council (USA)
PBS  = Public Broadcasting Service (USA)
TV   = Television
URLs = Universal Resource Locators
WMDs = weapons of mass destruction

Background:
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9802&L=geodesic&O=T&P=3652
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9802&L=geodesic&O=T&P=4358


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 06:25:31 -0500
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From:         Kevin Schappacher <Kevin.Schappacher@DALSEMI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Out of Office AutoReply: Sudan and war-torn Africa (economics
              by
Comments: To: Brian Hutchings <r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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Yes, I am and I apologize for the autoreply...
I'm required to do that when I'm out of the plant...
I'm a lurker for now...
I'll take part in discussions when I have a pertinent point
KES

> ----------
> From:         Brian Hutchings[SMTP:r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us]
> Sent:         Friday, August 28, 1998 1:20 PM
> To:   Kevin.Schappacher@dalsemi.com
> Subject:      Out of Office AutoReply: Sudan and war-torn Africa
> (economics by
>
> MESSAGE from =Kevin.Schappacher@dalsemi.com 28-AUG-1998 11:15
>  I am out of the currently out of the office...I will respond to your very
>  inportant E-Mail message, after I return...THANX,  KevinKevin E.
> Schappacher
>
>  System Extension Lab Manager
>  Dallas Semiconductor
>  4401 S Beltwood Parkway
>  Dallas, TX 75244
>  Ph. (972)371-6389 Fax (972)371-3717
> - - - - -
>
> <<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      28-AUG-1998 11:20
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>  huh -- are you on the list?
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:39:19 -0700
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From:         "GENI (Peter Meisen)" <geni@CERF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Lighting up earth.
In-Reply-To:  <35E4AE07.D5C4EB51@wtp.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dear Mark,
As you mentioned, the interconnected electrical networks are expanding in
many regions.  Most recently, such unlikely neighbors as Argentina - Chile,
Iran -Turkey and even Pakistan - India are exploxing the option.

Yet, 2 billion people remain unserved by any electrical energy -- and the
benefits that you an I take for granted: clean water, lighting,
refrigeration, communication, sewage disposal, health care, and so on.

The other half of the global grid strategy is to dramatically expand the
renewable energy capacity, which today is only 20% of the total.  Coal,
oil, gas and nuclear continue to dominate the energy development in the
developing regions of the world.

The GENI Initiative (Global Energy Network Institute) has recently earned
several world-class endorsements for this global strategy -- from Walter
Cronkite, Boutros Boutros-Ghali, Desmond Tutu, Ruud Lubbers, and many more.

GENI is a non-profit research and education 501(c)(3) -- and we are always
looking for more partners, donors, endorsements, media placements, interns.
For a complete understanding, please consult our web site:
http://www.geni.org

In partnership for the planet,
Peter Meisen

END


>I'm not sure if i read your message wrong or what, Kirby, but a
>interconnected electrical system is happening now.
>
>I have noticed that some people don't (Not including you Kirby) seem to
>understand how a globally networked power grid, could work. Or the
>powers that be don't want people to know how it could work, I guess.
>
>Brian I don't know where you get your information from. (I mean that
>literally) I tried a search for the Pugwash conference on the site you
>indicated had the answer and it's not there. But getting back to the
>point of of who best fits the Dr. Strange glove mold it's definitely
>Edward Teller and not Leo Szilard. Szilard was not at all pro nuclear
>weapons. Accept at that conference when it was supposed that the Germans
>had a bomb or were close to having a bomb. Szilard advocated nuclear
>energy has a lot of scientists of the time. He went out of his way to
>bring about a peace between the super powers when crazies like Gen.
>Curtis Lemay wanted to bomb anything that moved. Or anybody who might
>contaminate his or any other god fearing, red blooded (Obviously not
>pinko blooded) Americans precious bodily fluids. Szilard went to
>Einstein 'cause they were buddies in Germany before the war. And that
>was the only time that Teller acted as he put it 'Szilard's chauffeur',
>after that Teller pretty much ran the show especially after the first
>bomb tests were over. Could it be that Teller's interest in bomb
>production was so rabid because, along with holding the patent to the H
>bomb (Well he co owned it with Fuchs, but he never had to worry about
>sharing any royalties with Fuchs.) he holds a lot of weapons patents and
>Szilard holds non.
>
>Let's see what kind of reaction I get from this.
>Also Kirby, I don't believe the great deeds that some religions, may
>have performed, or say they are performing, come even close to the
>misery they have caused.
>
>I dropped the syn-L thing cause you guys strike me as very "Rush
>Limboughish", but at the same time I'm pretty sure you guys aren't "Big
>fat idiots". My goodness a Jewish comedy writer said that. I realize
>Bucky thought highly of that wacky fascist, good humored as he was
><Extreme sarcasm> , Henry Ford. At least here I can get info about domes
>and etc. After I finish Amy Edmondson's book I'd like to help work on
>'Hugh Kenner's book on the web'. I rewrote the program he presents in
>his book for generating chord lengths etc., many years ago to work on
>my. HP 11c, I don't believe anybody uses that calculator any more but I
>guess I could write up the code in another language, along with posting
>his tables.
>
>Mark Somers



                    GLOBAL ENERGY NETWORK INTERNATIONAL
                               Peter Meisen
                               P.O.Box 81565
                            San Diego, CA 92138

                              (619) 595-0139
                            FAX: (619) 595-0403

        Visit the GENI World Wide Web Home Page:  http://www.geni.org/
                   Email: Internet:        geni@cerf.net
                          Compuserve:    75543.520@compuserve.com

GENI is a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation conducting education and
research into the interconnection of renewable energy resources around the
world.  This was proposed as the highest priority objective from the World
Game of 20th century visionary, Dr. R Buckminster Fuller.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:42:34 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Geni.
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Hi Peter.

One of the first places I checked out when I first got on the web was
the Dept of energy. I'm interested in the Fuel cell research that they
are carrying out. One thing that really intrigued me was their strategy
for dispersal of the technology. If I understand it correctly their
intention is to place many fuel cells around and by doing so you
decentralize energy production and if the owner of the fuel cell creates
more power than they need the owners meter runs backward. The fuel cells
they are most interested in getting out into the market via commercial
operators are fuel cells that burn natural gas.

One of their big goals is to get the central European countries to
utilize this technology in the hopes of decreasing coal use in that
region. Enormous, and in some cases irreversible damage to the forests
of central Europe has occurred from the former soviet block nations
burning high sulfur coal. Something more insidious than acid rain is
produced in the region; acid fog is killing the forests there.

The reason the Dept of energy, in cooperation with NASA, is involved in
fuel cell development is that the Army wants the technology so they can
be more stealthy in the field, generators and vehicles make a lot of
noise. And in the case of vehicles fuel cell power plants create less
targetable thermal signatures. Given the anti terrorists fervor going on
now smaller decentralized power generation is a good anti terrorist
defense strategy. (Doing the right things for the wrong reasons).
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:45:41 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Scott Ritter on PBS

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      01-SEP-1998 12:45
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I heard from Bonn, that the Administration has *apologized*
 to Sudan, and offered restitution, on some informal basis,
 although they're holding-out for complete exhoneration;
 which is to show, if true, that Clinton's advisors were stupid,
 or lying, or both, or that they were duped
 by equally foolish NGOs (the unusual suspects being AI,
 Human Rights Watch and UNCHR -- the latter, as per
 their heinous attacks upon Hun Sen, in favor
 of the Khmer Rouge!)
    that is the problem with your paradigm,
 Big Mutha IS Watching You, which I grok isthe subject
 of a nonscifi book, and the network of "NWO" NGOs,
 like Transparency Intl., and os on.

 thus quoth:
  the regime of webcams and inhouse monitoring (including plenty
  of informants), prototyped in Saddam's castles, and now ready
  for more consistent implementation on a global basis, where to

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:00:38 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Lighting the World

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      01-SEP-1998 13:00
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 that's good -- adn you forgot "cold" (catalyzed) fusion!...
 the fact taht you consider oil & gas (and coal, to a lesser extent)
 to be nonrenewable, is indicative of a *lot* of TV-watching;
 I'll post some thing that gives a hint, about that.

 thus quoth:
  renewable energy capacity, which today is only 20% of the total.  Coal,
  oil, gas and nuclear continue to dominate the energy development in the
  developing regions of the world.

 Cronkite is a talkinghead, Boutros-Boutros-Boutros is anotorious
 oligarch, like "Pasha" Boutros was,
 Tutu's Reconcilliation Council (?) has juts uncovered the role
 of MI5 or MI6 in the assassination of Jan What's-his-name,
 the former Secretary-General, and in-passing with that
 of Patrice (Lumumba, generally "given" credit to Duh CIA)
 -- and so on.

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:06:42 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Lighting the World

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      01-SEP-1998 13:06
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
    A few "enviromaniacal" comments.  Firstly, my opponent, Ed Muzika,
 had gone whole-hog against the poisoning of *innocent* squirrels,
 who may have a lot of clout in the community, for all that I know.  Then,
 it appeared in his M.O.-- I mean,"profile", that he liked to feed feral cats,
 in Pallisades Park; it took me a while to recall this, but,
 I have *seen* a squirrel munching from a bowl, just over the fence,
 on the bluff, which I had assumed to be "squirrel kibble".
    That was just one squirrel; on the other hand,
 I didn't see *any* cats eating it, but they are nocturnal, I guess.  My big "
 maybe, feral cats *ought* to be hungry in the parks, so that
 they'll be good, little solvers of the problem with squirrels (namely,
 that they're fed by picnicers -- and catlovers, in one case !-)
    As for Doggy Parks for the K9 community,
 I had suggested to the Santa Monica City Council,
 to integrate them with the soccer- and baseball-fields,
 per the run-off, by using "keyline planning",
 a "compleat solution" that is covered in the book,
 _Water for Every Farm_ (revised edition avail.from Elfin Permaculture
 in Ogala, Florida).
    Re DreamWorks and "Playa del Treis Reys",
 an awful lot of folks seem to have a rather picaresque fairytale
 of run-off, from an "undeveloped" site.  Really, though,
 it may be more realistic, to consider a river to be akin
 to an organic *sewer* -- think about it; otherwise,
 wouldn't the fish eventually starve!?...  and,
 the estuary is the settling-tank!
    This "fairy-fart paradigm" reaches its nadir, beneath the Hughes radar,
 with the flippant proposal of that whacky Ulan Bator Foundation,
 to *steamclean* the nice-ty streets of Venice
 --as if oil did not organically ooze from the Redondo Seep, some time ago--
 except that they appeared to be totally, "dead" serious.  Or,
 how about SMCC's approval,
 to the tune of seven megabucks (2 in grants and 5 in a longterm loan,
 apparently linked to county-wide assessments,
 which have no increases in the following fiscal year, at the least;
 these two things were done in conjunction with LACC, so
 strike the part about the County?) -- to "microfilter and UV-sterilize" the s
 from the Pico-Ketner drain, and the other one,
 in the Dry-Weather Run-off Facility, or DWRF.  But, then,
 I actually thought, it was a Rite of Passage, for Surfer-Dudes
 to catch Various Dyseases,  directy after or *during* a storm,
 to develop their immunities, in leiu of shots at school -- and school,
 to go riight-back into the water, ASAP, for as *long* as possible.


 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:23:12 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      More fuelcell stuff.
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Also fuelcells create water. A large system is in use by one of the
larger hospitals in California and the water that is produced is for now
being used for cleaning laundry.
 http://www.fuelcells.org/

I was working with a gentleman some 10 years ago who was working on a
patent for solar distillation of sea water using geodesic domes. I made
up some drawings for him. But at the same time it got me to thinking
about a dome over a portion of Tucson or maybe even Phoenix with all
power (vehicles included) being powered by hydrogen fuelcells only. The
hydrogen would be produced off the coast of California or maybe in the
Gulf of California then pumped via pipeline to the domed cities. There
would then be plenty of water (3 to 2 times) given present per capita
power consumption.

Also except for some fancy work on the images pages, I'm done with Amy
Edmondson's book "A Fuller Explanation" .
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/40.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:24:40 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: More fuelcell stuff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      01-SEP-1998 13:24
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 wow, for laundry, and not drinking (or the many other uses
 in a hospital) ?!?...  also,
 it's important to note,
 the other primary constituent of combustion-exhaust *is* water,
 and I'm sure that it is a significant contributor
 to that terrible hunmidity, and so on, of "urban heat islands".
 besides, if you've ever run along side a busy highway,
 you'd know that it's no big deal
 ("smog alerts" generically occur during the hottest,
 humidest afternoons, when us gung-ho types are doing the decathlon;
 if it weren't for that healthful ozonation, I'd probably be dead !-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:32:21 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Re: More fuelcell stuff
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Brian Hutchings wrote:

> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      01-SEP-1998 13:24
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  wow, for laundry, and not drinking (or the many other uses
>  in a hospital) ?!?...  also,
>  it's important to note,
>  the other primary constituent of combustion-exhaust *is* water,
>  and I'm sure that it is a significant contributor
>  to that terrible hunmidity, and so on, of "urban heat islands".
>  besides, if you've ever run along side a busy highway,
>  you'd know that it's no big deal
>  ("smog alerts" generically occur during the hottest,
>  humidest afternoons, when us gung-ho types are doing the decathlon;
>  if it weren't for that healthful ozonation, I'd probably be dead !-)

  No not for drinking (Yet). Probably a psycho-political thing.

All US manned (personed) spacecraft fly utilizing fuelcells for power and
drinking water.

I hope you're kidding about running along the busy highways during the
summer, Brian that is very unhealthy. Ozone is toxic to all organic matter
including iron willed decathon participants.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:30:12 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Patrick Salsbury <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Geni & Fuel Cells
In-Reply-To:  <35EC4E29.C3912AB3@wtp.net> from "Mark Somers" at Sep 1,
              98 01:42:34 pm
Content-Type: text

>
> Hi Peter.
>
> One of the first places I checked out when I first got on the web was
> the Dept of energy. I'm interested in the Fuel cell research that they
> are carrying out. One thing that really intrigued me was their strategy
> for dispersal of the technology. If I understand it correctly their
> intention is to place many fuel cells around and by doing so you
> decentralize energy production and if the owner of the fuel cell creates
> more power than they need the owners meter runs backward. The fuel cells
> they are most interested in getting out into the market via commercial
> operators are fuel cells that burn natural gas.
>
        Yes, fuel-cells are very interesting. The idea is to deploy them on
the scale of car engines and houses. You just have them all over and there's
no central power plant that risks being destroyed by natural disaster or human
malice.

        If anyone here is interested in discussing fuel-cells in more
depth, you're invited to join the fuel-cells mailing list. There are
instructions on how to sign up at:

http://www.sculptors.com/lists.html

        I'm specifically interested in fuel-cells for use in automobiles
(especially hypercars), and in autonomous housing. Hope to see you on the
list!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 02:55:31 -0500
Reply-To:     accutone@bowlingpin.com
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From:         accutone@BOWLINGPIN.COM
Subject:      Online Marketing
Comments: To: dibuwckk@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
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700 engines & directories - 80.00
(if you want more submissions, please email us on how many you want)

Pay per 100 engines & directories - 20.00 (Total number of engines & directories to send to: 2040)

Also, we have special search engine packages add ons. Each one cost $10.00 more, and entitles you to 100 more search engines which are over and above the standard service. We also carry a special European package of 100 search engines, that are targeted for the Eurpoean market. This add-on cost $20.00. The add on's must be purchased with the standard service, except the Eurpoean package, which can be purchased seperately. Discounts for 6 month and 1 year pre-paid submissions are available. Just tell us what you want, and we'll see what we can do.

4. Classified Ads

Very similar to web submissions, except you don't necessary have to be promoting a webpage. It can be for anything. We have an up to date listing of all classifed ad sites out there, including FFAL(Free for all Links), etc.

Price per 100 sites(total sites are: 1044) $35.00

Note: discounts can apply on larger orders

5. Press Releases - Coming soon!!! If your interested please tell us this, so we can notify you when we are ready for this service.

6. Email Lists

Ok. So you want to do your own bulk emailings. Well, we have our own bulk emailing lists, which are cleaned of remove requests, flames, etc. Also, we have much more on stock.

500,000 - 220.00
1,000,000 - 350.00

7. Targeted Mailings & Targeted Email Lists

We also have targeted email addresses, and also can retrieve targeted email addresses. Minimum order of 5,000, due to the large work involved. Prices start at  200.00 per 5,000, and go up from there, depending on the amount of targeting being done.

8. Ezine Publications

We are now pleased to offer the service of sending Ezine Publications. Basically, an ezine is an informative magazine sent by email on a regular basis. It is supported by advertisers wishing to market their product or service. We will maintain ad placement for the ezine, the targeted market that the ezine is intended for, and the actual sending of the ezine. All you do is supply the actual content. Prices are as follows:

10,000 - 350.00
20,000 - 500.00
40,000 - 800.00
100,000 - 1,200.00

This is a monthly rate for a standard ezine. Depending on the circumstances, and how many times a month you wish your ezine to be sent, prices may vary. If your interested, please contact us and give us a little background on what you intend to do, etc.

9. Web Page Design

Let us create your web page, with state of the art design & graphics. To get started on this, you will need to send us a proposal, either by email, fax, or snail mail. If possible please send us a competitive price so we can work out and negotiate the web site to be designed.

10. Customized Graphics

We can customize any graphics you desire. For example do you need customized pictures, a company logo, a banner, or any type of graphical illustration. We can do all. Contact us on what you need, and we will reply with a price quote.

11. Web Page Maintenance

We also can maintain your web page, and make changes as you require them. The prices can be negotiated on this. For further info. please email us, or phone us.

12. Credit Card Merchant Account

We have arrangements with a major credit card processor, which will allow you to obtain a pre-approved merchant account. You can then accept credit cards on your web-site, or be able to receive orders, form email messages sent out, etc. They also have various other services that they provide. Email us for more information.

13. Market Analysis

Do you know what's going on in your market segment on the Internet?? What your competition is up to, and how you can optimize your business to take advantage of the internet, and also your competition. We'll show you how. Basically we will write up a report stating what's involved in your market as of now, who's involved, what they are doing that is unique, and suggestions that can help you go over the top against any competitor on the net. Once you are ready to implement what we have suggested we can help you there also. A basic report start's at $100, and goes from there, depending how deep you want to go.

14. Marketing Consultant

Do you need a marketing consultant to help you prepare for the Internet. We can help. We will go to the headquarters of your company directly and discuss strategies that you can do, and consult on what needs to take place. A flat fee of $100 per hour is charged, minimum of 3 hours. Also this does not include transportation and other expenses.

Do you have a deal to make with us?? Send us some info. on your proposal and we will look at it. If we want to go from there, we will negotiate fairly.

We are always coming out with new services and products. Do you have any new ideas that we can add to our extensive list of products/services. Drop us a line, and we will certainly look over it. If there's something that's not here, we probably came out with it, or will come out with it. Just contact us and we will see what we can do.

How to order or Contact us:

As stated above, prices are in US. Funds. We accept as payment, check, money order, or bank transfer.
For check's and money orders please send to our postal address. For bank transfer's please email, or phone us, for further instructions.

To place an order, send a proposal, or to discuss anything with us:

Postal Address:

Estroco Technologies
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Email: accutone@bowlingpin.com
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Thanks for your attention and time.

Note: if you don't wish to receive further mailings, please respond to our email address stating this, and you will not receive any mailings from us or will not be place on any email lists, etc. You will just be transferred to our permanent remove list, which will guarantee you receive no mailings from us, or any mailings from lists sold by us.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1998 00:38:01 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Alex Makarow <innotech@DSUPER.NET>
Organization: Innovative Technologies
Subject:      Windup Technology for Earthquake Preparedness
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Windup Technology for Earthquake Preparedness

X-To: Kevin T. Barnes
Innovative Technologies Inc.
P.O. Box 32052
3749 Shelbourne St.
Victoria, B.C.
V8P 5S2

Dear Mr. Barnes:

As an earthquake planner since 1979 as Regional Director, Emergency Planning
Canada, B.C. & Yukon,
and as an international consultant on earthquake preparedness, I have been
involved in developing
emergency kits for earthquakes or any other emergency for twenty years. In that
time, one of the
concerns that I and others have had is with radios, flashlights and batteries
stored in these kits.
The batteries deteriorate, and may when needed, fail. I have, over time, tried
a variety of self
powered radios.  They are usually charge a battery through either a crank or
through solar cells or
both. Every one of them has died in a relatively short time because the battery
deteriorates and
destroys the radio.  Your Baygen radio has none of these failings because of
the design, which does
away with the need for a battery. I have one of these radios in my own
emergency kit and I would
certainly endorse its place in any emergency kit.  It has a proven, long
reliable life, and as we
all know, communication during emergencies is essential if we are to be aware
of what the
authorities are doing and what they are trying to tell us.

I would like to thank you for the opportunity to see your new Baygen
flashlight. It is far superior
to any other emergency light I have seen and clearly should have a place
in any emergency kit. I will certainly be adding one to my own kit!

Finally, I should also tell you that I am giving serious thought to installing
your QuakeAlert in
order to alert and protect my family.

Sincerely,

signed

F.D. Cooper, BA, FICD
Principal (Mr. Earthquake)

F. D. Cooper & Associates,
Emergency Planning Consultants
4978 Del Monte Ave.
Victoria, BC
V8Y 3A3

For more information on the BayGen Windup Emergency Radios visit
http://www.dsuper.net/~innotech/radio2.htm

For more information on the BayGen Freeplay Flashlight / lantern visit
http://www.dsuper.net/~innotech/flash.htm

For more information on the QuakeAlert electronic earthquake alarm visit
http://www.dsuper.net/~innotech/quake.htm

For more information on Eathquake Preparedness visit
http://www.dsuper.net/~innotech/earth.htm

Thank-you,
Alex Makarow
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:25:05 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: More fuelcell stuff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      04-SEP-1998  3:25
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I might *joke*, but I'd never be "kidding"
 about such an important weapon in the arsenal
 of respiratory therapy (in a clinical setting,
 of course ... actually, I think, in Europe,
 it's mostly an outpatient thing) !!...  in some circles,
 we call it "activated oxygen", and it's a nice, solar thing,
 as well as that buzz you get, after nearly being struck
 by lightening (most folks don't inhale, though,
 due to the adrenalin .-)

 thus quoth:
  I hope you're kidding about running along the busy highways during the
  summer, Brian that is very unhealthy. Ozone is toxic to all organic matter
  including iron willed decathon participants.

 wathc that traffic, dude, but I hear that
 the air is better in Mexico City;
 it's more of an enclosed valley, apparently
 (I've only been to Tijauna, but
 I am *still* a Fellow Traveler).
    in other words,
 there's a *lot* of apocrypha re ozone,
 not the least of which comes from the EPA (and
 their notorious "LD-50" tests and so on), and
 our own SCAQMD (SoCal Air Quality Mgmt.District).
 what they never tell you about those tests:
 the mice *crave* those little balloons of dilute ozone; I mean,
 you should see them run through the bearings
 on their excercise machin!

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:03:26 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "GENI (Peter Meisen)" <geni@CERF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Lighting the World
In-Reply-To:  <199809012000.NAA17708@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Brian,
I am confused with your reply.  Coal, oil and gas are non-renewable energy
resources -- and has nothing to do with watching TV.

And are you discounting the thoughful endorsements from Mr. Cronkite,
Boutros-Ghali and Desmond Tutu?  These are just three of many who have
offered their confidence in this global stratgy for peace and sustainable
development.

I hope you will dig further into our web site:  http://www.geni.org
Peter Meisen



><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      01-SEP-1998 13:00
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> that's good -- adn you forgot "cold" (catalyzed) fusion!...
> the fact taht you consider oil & gas (and coal, to a lesser extent)
> to be nonrenewable, is indicative of a *lot* of TV-watching;
> I'll post some thing that gives a hint, about that.
>
> thus quoth:
>  renewable energy capacity, which today is only 20% of the total.  Coal,
>  oil, gas and nuclear continue to dominate the energy development in the
>  developing regions of the world.
>
> Cronkite is a talkinghead, Boutros-Boutros-Boutros is anotorious
> oligarch, like "Pasha" Boutros was,
> Tutu's Reconcilliation Council (?) has juts uncovered the role
> of MI5 or MI6 in the assassination of Jan What's-his-name,
> the former Secretary-General, and in-passing with that
> of Patrice (Lumumba, generally "given" credit to Duh CIA)
> -- and so on.
>
> --The End Was Nigh!
> http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm



                    GLOBAL ENERGY NETWORK INTERNATIONAL
                               Peter Meisen
                               P.O.Box 81565
                            San Diego, CA 92138

                              (619) 595-0139
                            FAX: (619) 595-0403

        Visit the GENI World Wide Web Home Page:  http://www.geni.org/
                   Email: Internet:        geni@cerf.net
                          Compuserve:    75543.520@compuserve.com

GENI is a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation conducting education and
research into the interconnection of renewable energy resources around the
world.  This was proposed as the highest priority objective from the World
Game of 20th century visionary, Dr. R Buckminster Fuller.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:33:37 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         kbquinn@MY-DEJANEWS.COM
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Subject:      A new flavor of SPAM! Was: Windup Technology for Earthquake
              Preparedness

In article <35EF98D9.90DE2BAF@dsuper.net>,
  Alex Makarow <innotech@dsuper.net> wrote:
> Windup Technology for Earthquake Preparedness
[ spam cheerfully removed ]

Geeze.  What these dweebs won't stoop to next...

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1998 23:20:39 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Lighting the World

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      05-SEP-1998 23:20
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 you're confused; yes!...  the purported viewing,
 to which I refer, is the famous Exxon (ne Mobil Oil) Corp.'s cartoon,
 of the (Big Purple?) Dinosaur, transforming itself
 into a gigantic drop o'hydrocarbon;
 apparently, Bucky recieved these materials, two, or
 perhaps MacLuhan made him watch it (shades
 of Clockwork Orange ?-)
    I know, Bucky's reference to this, re "Obnoxico",
 I guess, contains the self-same paradigm,
 that "petroleum", coming from rocks, *must* be ages-old, and
 dinosaurs are just a factotum of "really, really old stuff",
 but younger than "billions & billions".  however,
 I don't think that "the industry" has ever made a serious effort,
 either to date the ooze from the Redondo (Beach, CA) Seep (e.g.),
 or to publicize such putative dating-methods and results.  no;
 Obnoxico, or LAWCAP, or the *fondi*, are satisfied
 with attacking, say, the goment of Nigeria,
 over alleged environmental abuses, instead
 of the colonialist entities that benefit,
 such as Royal Dutch/British Shell -- why,
 they even set-up a former employee,
 Ken Saro-Wiwa, who may have been compelled by his own conscience
 (we know not.  however, just listen
 to Nobeliste Solyinka (sp.?), whose majot utterances amount
 to using the N-word against Gen.Abacha,
 now against the new General, but it's the D-wrod,
 Dictator; dysgusting & creepy).

 thus quoth:
  I am confused with your reply.  Coal, oil and gas are non-renewable energy
  resources -- and has nothing to do with watching TV.

 I am certainly dyscounting Cronkite,
 to at least the dime-per-dozen rate; I mean,
 you are going below the criteria of MacLuhan,
 which is a very grave situation, if y'know what I mean!
    I cannot dyscount Boutros-Boutros-Boutros, enough;
 you clearly know almost nothing about the history of the UN,
 or of Boutros "Pasha" Ghali (AKA Daddy);
 nor did Bucky, obviously.
    I cited a finding of Tutu's Truth and Reconcilliation Cmte.;
 get with it!...  as for Mandela,
 he has joined the "commonwealth", and has proven
 to be totally ineffective in combatting that influence,
 as seen in his horrible lack of influence
 on the marcherlords in the Great Lakes region --
 he could do better, perhaps.


 thus quoth:
  And are you discounting the thoughful endorsements from Mr. Cronkite,
  Boutros-Ghali and Desmond Tutu?  These are just three of many who have
  offered their confidence in this global stratgy for peace and sustainable
  development.

  I hope you will dig further into our web site:  http://www.geni.org

 --Beat the Bush(es)
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:54:49 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      A geometry shop class (Labor Day weekend, 1998)
Comments: To: mathedcc@archives.math.utk.edu
In-Reply-To:  <Roam2.0.6.904850448.9510.jcotten@mars.sunyjcc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

PROJECT:

Concentric hierarchy shapes for classroom demonstrations

PROCESS:

Used compass and ruler to define 4" prime vector for tetrahedron, cube
etc.  Elmers & glue gun to hold edges, cloth tape applied when dry.

Because of the thickness of the bookbinder material (28 ply), Russ
incorporated thickness into dimensions of cube faces, so the gluing of
adjacent sides might be flush, making for a stronger box with an
internal volume having face-diagonals of 4". Other shapes took beads
of hot glue along the creases (no attempt to bevel or mitre edges),
followed with a tape covering.

We use red lentils (actually orange -- goes well with black tape) for
pouring from one shape to another, to demonstrate volumetric relation-
ships (one face left "open" on each shape).  Working on pouring tech-
nique (might need a funnel).

We decided the rhombic triacontahedron was too precise and complicated
to get out of the thick 28-ply so returned to Art Media on First Day
for some thinner paperboard (also picked up more roles of cloth tape).

Helps to slightly bend 28-ply stuff apart with each stroke of the
Xacto blade.  We used a large paper cutter at Kinko's (protected
slider cut, not one of those old cleaver-style models, which have
been fazed out for safety reasons) to do long strips for the
rhombic triaconta, leaving only slant-cuts for the Xacto:

------------------------------------------------  <-- Kinko's
 /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   }
/    /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /    }
------------------------------------------------  <-- Kinko's

Shapes made (over Labor Day weekend):

                          Volume
Tetrahedron                 1
Cube                        3
Octahedron                  4
Rhombic Triacontahedron     5*
Rhombic Dodecahedron        6
Icosahedron                18.51+
Cuboctahedron              20

* given upper limits on precision associated with these construction
methods, there's no easy way to differentiate the E-module from the
T-module RT, so we'll say this is the T-mod one, with volume 5
precisely.  We might be off by a lentil or two.

I have presentations shaping up in Philadelphia, DC and New York
in early November but haven't decided if I want to try lugging these
shapes in my hand-carry or checked.  I am hopeful that local centers
will by then have similar props on hand for public domain sharing.

Kirby
Oregon Curriculum Network

Addendum

SUPPLIES*

Office Depot
-----------------------
Glue Gun     $5.79
Knife.Xacto  $2.49 x 2
3M Tape      $1.49 x 2
Blade,#11    $4.79
Glue All       .48
Stanley Glue $2.69
Compass      $4.59
Ruler.Metal  $3.99
Ruler.Metal  $2.99
             =====
            $33.28

Art Media
-----------------------
28 Ply Recycled 32x40    $4.50
Rotex 3/4" Tape (black)  $1.39
                         =====
                         $5.89

Fred Meyer
-----------------------
Red lentils              $3.83

* not counting rhombic triaconta paper, didn't use the 3M tape,
had to get 3 more roles of the black stuff.

For background reading:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/volumes.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1998 18:52:29 +0200
Reply-To:     rbright3@ix.netcom.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Ray Bright <rbright3@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: LexIcom video
Subject:      Pod Dome
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In 1971 I built a "Pod Dome" from a Bucky plan.  I do not know where the
plans came from or went to, but I'd dearly love a set.  Does any one
know of these plans or where to begin searching for them?

Ray
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:20:21 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Curt Flowers <cjflower@UIUC.EDU>
Organization: University of Illinois
Subject:      Re: Pod Dome
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There's plans for a "pod" dome in Domebook 2 (I believe. I'll check when
I get home.) But it is not a "Bucky plan". It is a dome made of plywood
sheets cut into banana peel wedges and fastened together. It that what
you built?
Ray Bright wrote:
>
> In 1971 I built a "Pod Dome" from a Bucky plan.  I do not know where the
> plans came from or went to, but I'd dearly love a set.  Does any one
> know of these plans or where to begin searching for them?
>
> Ray
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:19:07 -0700
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From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Tesla Symposium Report GEO
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Just finished up with the 1998 Tesla Symposium, the first one held in
Denver.  As usual, it was great.  We got a lot of enthusiastic feedback from
attendees.  Unfortunately due to the Labor Day weekend scheduling i was
unable to be at some sessions, and did not actually get to hear any entire
presentations.  The timing also cut our attendance to some degree.  However,
i did manage to have several enlightening conversations with a number of
inventors and builders.

On the medical front, things are progressing well.  Most significant is the
refinement of electronic pulse technology by Ed Skilling, who is now in his
70's and still going strong.  He had several new research devices which are
commercially available and viable.  Of course current US laws do not allow
any medical claims to be made, but anyone can buy these things and see for
themselves the medicine of the future -- a cheap and effective set of
technologies which will eventually be able to address almost any physical
condition.

Three new motor builders showed up with promising devices.  These were Mark
Deal, Mark Richards, and Don Martin.  All three are managing to get slight
increases in power delivered from their motors, compared to input.  At this
stage, the extra power is ephemeral and difficult to harness, but it is
there.  Deal in particular has a very good theoretical framework.  Martin
was able to bring two motors down, and although he doesn't have a clue how
they work, he was able to give us some excellent ideas.

Paul Pantone has done excellent work in commercializing new technologies.
He has set up a small and closely held company in Utah which is now able to
distribute several devices.  Most significant is a "plasma tube" which can
be added to cars and significantly increases gas mileage by using a sort of
chemical feedback reaction on the exhaust gases.  These can be purchased as
part of standalone electric generators, or as kits which can go on many
standard engine models.  One guy brought a Cadillac which had just gotten
one installed.  Also demonstrated were some trucks which had been modified.

More standard alternative technology was exhibited by Steven Joyner of
Torrington, Wyoming.  He is singlehandedly reviving the whole field of wind
power.

The field of alternative technology is still in its infancy.  We still have
to contend with possibly fraudulent people, but the situation is not as bad
as it used to be even five years ago.  The worst frauds have been
discredited, partly through the efforts of the Tesla Society.

There is a general consensus that young researchers are very much needed.
Some of the greatest progress will be made by those who are too
inexperienced to know it can't be done.  Several educational kits for
children are available through the Tesla Society.  Also, videos of most
Symposium speakers, including the ones mentioned here, are available.  Phone
number for the Society is 719-475-0918.  Office hours are 10 am - 4 pm,
Monday through Saturday, Mountain time.

I also am willing to privately send addresses of several developers to those
who are interested.

-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:34:38 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      the royal troglodytes

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-SEP-1998  0:34
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

  >>....In all viable strains of modern science, >>the devlopment of
  mathematics relevant to experimental physics, >>was not derived from blind
  faith in the so-called "counting numbers"; >>its origin was, as Riemann's
  standpoint emphasizes, >>in Classical Greek geometry; the notion of a
  discoverable, >>perfectable, unified, coherent principle, governing
  measurement >>of extension in physical space-time.  [24. >>The relevant,
  misguided belief implictly addressed here, >>is the fostering of the
  fraudulent theme, "history begins >>at Sumer," promoted by the "British
  Israelite" fanatics >>who dominated 19th-C. "Biblical archeology": >>those
  who virtually demolished a mountain of precious archeological >>evidence,
  in their wild-eyed, "Fundamentalist" zeal >>for being the first to
  discover the exact street-number >>of Abraham's residence in Ur.  A
  related piece >>of nonsense, persisting to the present day, is the British
  Israellite >>doctrinaire's racist obsession with the delusion, that >>the
  original founders of the culture of Sumer were Semites [i.e. >>could not
  have been descendants of the Old Testament's Ham]: >>an arbitrary
  assertion, without basis in evidence, and contrary >>to the evidence that
  that the Sumerians whom the Semites labelled >>the "black-headed people,"
  represented those relative far-flung >>colonizing efforts (e.g., Horn of
  Africa) of a maritime culture based >>upon the then-contemporary, far more
  extensive culture >>of the nearby, western Asian subcontinent.

 --Beat the Bushes!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:36:52 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      the royal troglodytes

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-SEP-1998  0:36
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

  {cont.} which is also the paradigm for the Gaea-rooted, Delphi
  Apollo-cult, and Delphi's Lycurgus tradition at Sparta, etc.  The
  extension of the numerology & cabalism of Isaac Newton, and of 19th
  -C.Berlin's Prof.L.Kronecker, into modern times, like the geocentric hoax
  concocted fraudulently by Claudius Ptolemy, is a product of the lunacy of
  the specific pagan tradition of the "mother goddess" principle, which
  persists, still today, as a pollution of modern history. {end footnote
  24}]  Only in terms of extension in physical space-time, is it possible to
  test whether the illiterate's blind faith in mere counting has not, yet
  once again, deceived us.
          Thd defining topice of experimental physical science, is the
  subject of demonstrable anomalies: the measurable demonstration of cases
  in shich a phenomenon stubbornly persists, as the univers's contemptuous,
  impenetrable defiance of the contemporary putative authorities.  It is the
  explicit focus upon the underlying implications of such anomalies, which
  separates the science of Classical Greece -- that which began with the
  work of Plato's Academy -- from all earlier contributions to empirical
  dialogues, most notably what we recognize today as the later ones. [25.
  The discovery of very long solar-astronomical cycles by the ancient
  cultures of pre-aridization Central Asia (circa 6-4000BC, or earlier) is a
  relevant illustration of the point. {not to be cont. -- I've got blisters
  on my fingers !-} --from "Russia's Relation to Universal History",
    Copyr.29november by EIR News Service (all rights reserved)
    [subscriptions, 703/777-9451; the weekly *paper* is affordable,
    though, while *this* is a dollar/day]

  >[The fact, that the Semitic colonials adopted the cuneiform symbology >of
  the Sumerian colonizers, has as much relevance >for the supposition that
  the Sumerians were Semites, as >the discovery of a German-Japan dictionary
  in Japanese proves that >Germans are ancestors of the Japanese.  From the
  same British- >Israelite delusion, that history begins at a Semitic Sumer,
  >comes the arbitrary assertion, that maritime cultures were off-shoots >of
  riparian development, where the physical-econimc evidence supports >the
  notion of a directly contrary ordering.]  In any case, >the lunar
  astronomy of ancient Mesopotamia was absolutely >inferior to the
  solar-astronomical astronomy >of Central Asia, thousands of years earlier,
  and to that >of the ancient Egypt contemporary to the Chaldeans.  As the
  evidence >of historical times attests, the degeneration >of the
  self-doomed ancient cultures of the region of the belt >from South Asia,
  associated with the introduction >of Moon-centered worship of "supreme
  `Great Mother' goddesses" >of the Shakti-Ishtar-Athtar-Astarte-Cybele-Gaea-
  Isis pantheonic paradigm,
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:03:13 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      dome, dome on the range!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-SEP-1998  1:03
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 12:528) GENERAL SCIENCE
 Brian Hutchings                                         30-NOV-95 12:33
  Subject: syn-l: APA contest -- wooden domes?



  oops, a bit late on this, as I thought the deadline was 15dec,

  not 8dec, as it is -- they have to receive it, then....

  this is a $10K (grand prize) competition to make a wooden house,

  using plywood, "I-beams", gluelams & any other standardized wooden product.

  they basically want the usual selection of plans & perspective *

  two cross-sections (at right angles each-other) & site-fitting and,

  (oh, yes) "elevations" (all 4 of'em).  the winning Yuppy Ensemble

  (with 2 teenagers & 2- car garage & basement access,

  no more thatn 2250sq.ft.on a flat 64'x64' lot, no compass orientation)

  will be built & displayed in Better Homes & Gardens, so that

  this could be good opp.for us to do some mainstreaming, if

  you can whip-out some CAD-stuff.  in other words,

  a lot of attention'll have to be given to the interior layout and

  to the exterior appearance, as always.

          actually, it's not too specific on WHO can compete, although

  obviously oriented toward "architects, intern architects, engineers,

  designers, builders & students".  anyway, if

  you want to be sent the form, call Sheryl Weaver at APA

  --the Engineered Wood Assoc.-- at 206/565-6600.  also,

  ask for the basic package about the materials and, if

  you really want to get into it,

  they're waiving the charges for their various educational stuffs,

  the ones that I ordered not having arrived.  be sure to ask

  for form T810. the Research Lit.Index.



  and here are the ones that I just had to have (or

  the titles looked as if they *might* be important to me):

  G213, V996, E30, L350, R200, R240, T625, V345, X461, Y510, S811,

  U813, S200, V110, V695.  They also have a few in Spanish & French, and

  some other ones that I want to order, Monday.

          have fun, and I may be vetting your knowledge of building --

  could get gory!



  -----

  A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture:  F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where

  F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-)

  -----

 --The End of History -- not again ?!?
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:26:59 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      the royal troglodytes

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-SEP-1998  1:26
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 recall from _Critical Path_,
 this is roughly Bucky's hypothesis,
 as he situated it in Thailand.

 thus quoth:
    >comes the arbitrary assertion, that maritime cultures were off-shoots >of
    riparian development, where the physical-econimc evidence supports >the
    notion of a directly contrary ordering.]  In any case, >the lunar

 --Beat the Bushes!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:26:40 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Further Evidence of No Fuel Shortage
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

[See URL for complete story.  Fuller stated many times there were more
than enough resources to accomodate all humanity at a high standard of
living - here is further evidence.  Natural gas is also more efficient
than petrolium.]

   Linkname: BBC News | Sci/Tech | Future fuel lies ocean deep
        URL:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_166000/166427.stm
       Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:16:31 GMT

Future fuel lies ocean deep

Scientists believe there is a vast and as yet untapped source of energy
locked in mud at the bottom of the ocean.

They say frozen natural gas produced by deep sea bacteria has built up
over thousands of years to provide the huge energy reserve.

Dr Ben Clennel, from the Earth sciences department at Leeds University,
has made a special study of these methane ice "gas hydrates".

Speaking at the British Association Science Festival being held at Cardiff
University, he said: "If you add together the energy content of all the
conventional fossil fuels - that's oil, gas and coal - and you compare it
with the energy content in natural gas hydrates, you find that there is
about twice as much energy potentially available in natural gas hydrates
than there is for all the fossil fuel resources that have been exploited
in the past. And we think we can exploit that in the future."

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:16:01 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fuller Domes
Comments: To: Robert Duchesnay <rduchesn@cca.qc.ca>
In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19980908153021.00679110@cca.qc.ca>
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Dear Robert,

See below.

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Duchesnay [mailto:rduchesn@cca.qc.ca]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 8:30 AM
> To: joemoore@cruzio.com
> Subject: Fuller Domes
>
> Dear Joe !!!
> question; are there any watchdogs "out there" looking after the
> architectural legacy left to us by Buckminster Fuller???

See the "People" section of my "Links"
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/LINKS/LinksPeople-A-D.htm

> I'm talking about the original landmark structures built by
> Fuller and Sadao
> or Fuller and T.C. Howard in the 1950's.
> My greatest worry is the geodesic dome just outside Baton-Rouge
> ,Louisiana.
> The other structures of great importance and interest are;
> the Climatron and the Wood River dome in St.Louis, the ASM dome near
> Cleveland... the Dymaxion house still waiting to be assembled at the Ford
> Museum??

See "Links/Shelter/General"
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/LINKS/LinksShelterDomesGeneral-A-G.htm

> I am currently surveying the situation here in Montreal and have
> been doing so for 15 years, having also intervened directly to bring
> Fuller's most famous geodesic dome back to life in 1989 and previously.
> In 1990 and 1992 I did photo documentary of the dome structures listed
> above but since then I have no news of how well these structure
> haved fared.
> If there is no watchdog circuit "out there" perhaps one could be
> initiated?
> All the best...
>
> Robert Duchesnay
> documentary artist
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:31:18 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: BUCKY'S MAP
Comments: To: "Russell D. Hoffman" <rhoffman@animatedsoftware.com>
In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19980727043137.0069cee0@mail.adnc.com>
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Dear Russell,

See Below:

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Russell D. Hoffman [mailto:rhoffman@animatedsoftware.com]
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 1998 9:32 PM
> To: joemoore@cruzio.com
> Subject:
>
> to:  joemoore@cruzio.com
>
> Dear Sir:
>
> I found a web page which appears to be by you at this address:
>
http://www.sunsite.unc.edu/london/altenergy/energy-resources/net-resources/B
ucky.Fuller.Virtual.Institute

This is an old (1995) version of my current web pages (URL above)

> The page lists us as a source for a Buckminster Fuller animated tutorial
> about his energy gird, an idea which is being promoted by the non-profit
> organization Global Energy Network International.
>
> This is still correct that we offer such a program, but it is no longer
> available on America Online.
>
> Folks out to get the free -- and highly acclaimed, I might add!!! --
> tutorial can still get it from the CompuServe site listed, or from our
> internet web site, which is:
>
> http://www.animatedsoftware.com
>
You are in my "Links" section under "Mapping/Animations"

> GENI themselves also have a web site at:
>
> http://www.geni.org
>
GENI is listed under both my "Organizations" and "Simulations" sections

> but I believe they still link to us for people who wish to
> download the program.
>
> I'd like to mention that the SVGA version of the tutorial has an
> interactive
> Dymaxion world map puzzle, which might be considered a separate reason to
> want to check out the program, aside from the GENI information.
>
> My sincere thanks for having listed the product in the first place,
>
> Respectfully yours,
>
> Russell Hoffman
> Animated Software Company

> (We created the demo at no charge for GENI)
> *************************************************
> ** THE ANIMATED SOFTWARE COMPANY
> ** Russell D. Hoffman, Owner and Chief Programmer
> ** P.O. Box 188006
> ** Carlsbad CA 92009-0801
> ** (800) 551-2726
> ** (760) 720-7261
> ** Fax: (760) 720-7394
> ** Visit the world's most eclectic web site:
> ** http://www.animatedsoftware.com
> *************************************************
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:17:17 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fuller Domes
Comments: To: Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <000001bddcf7$d46a21c0$cb77fea9@oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Joe S Moore wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Duchesnay [mailto:rduchesn@cca.qc.ca]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 8:30 AM
> > question; are there any watchdogs "out there" looking after the
> > architectural legacy left to us by Buckminster Fuller???
>
> > The other structures of great importance and interest are;
> > the Climatron and the Wood River dome in St.Louis, the ASM dome near
> > Cleveland... the Dymaxion house still waiting to be assembled at the Ford
> > Museum??

I visited the Climatron only a few months ago and it is in fine form.  The
local museums also feature several Fuller and Snelson related exhibits.

-T.

--
  Trevor Blake box2321@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/
  Post Office Box 2321, Portland Oregon 97208-2321, United States
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:56:36 -0700
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From:         "king s. chiu" <kchiu02@CCSF.CC.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Fuller Domes
In-Reply-To:  <000001bddcf7$d46a21c0$cb77fea9@oemcomputer>
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unsubscibe


King
Cis135a Tues4:00-7:00
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:56:49 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Fuller Domes

MESSAGE from ="List 10-SEP-1998 16:51
 unsubscibe


 King
 Cis135a Tues4:00-7:00
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      10-SEP-1998 16:56
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 duh, "Computer Science" 135-A ?!?

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:12:26 GMT
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From:         Eric Nastav <enastav@BOOKSTORE.IUPUI.EDU>
Organization: IHETS
Subject:      Re: Alternative investor-reward systems
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19980731131008.0302d4a4@mail.teleport.com>
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On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Kirby Urner wrote:

> At 09:02 AM 7/31/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >Paul Isaacs:
> >It seems to me that "economics" is the sum total of human activity.
> >The proof is that if everyone on the planet simply took a day off,
> >the net economic activity for that day would be precisely zero.
>
  Well, not really.  You forget about automation.
>
> Shutting the store down for a day would take a tremoundous amount
> of work and would take quite awhile to recover from, especially if
> you mean halting all the automated functions which continue by
> default.
>
  Everyone taking a day off wouldn't take much work at all!  It happens
on not global scale all the time.  They are called Holidays.
  Oh, and automated functions aren't "human activity".

> Humans are under extreme pressure to work and "stopping altogether"
> would take more work (against the grain of nature) than "keeping
> it going".  The default is to breathe, not to hold your breath.
>
  Actually, a strong argument can be made that a 40 hour work week is
quite unnatural.  And your comparison to automatic bodily functions
doesn't make sense. Holding your breathe for a few seconds doesn't take
much effort really, does it?

> Included in the humanly-contrived circuitry are switching systems
> for channeling work-potential (energy) to credit accounts.  If
> I have a lot of credit to my name, I can turn some big wheels
> whereas if I've been left out of the game (no chips), I may have
> a hard time keeping my kids alive.

  Um...handouts, welfare, etc.

  Eric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:04:19 GMT
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From:         Eric Nastav <enastav@BOOKSTORE.IUPUI.EDU>
Organization: IHETS
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
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>
> : If you think this kind of thinking is highly metaphoric, then I'd
> : say you're right.  But metaphorical doesn't necessarily imply
> : imprecise.  We're doing philosophy here, more than physics --
>
> But here, I must protest. Metaphoric *always* means imprecise. It is
> only that which is assigned number which *is* precise, and that is one
> reason why it is difficult for me to follow your theses.
>
  "Metaphoric *always* means imprecise?"?  How so?  A number is a symbol
for an idea.  Why could you not use a symbol other than a number.  I could
use anything I wanted to to symbolize the same thing a number does.
  A metaphor is the use of a symbol which has other things it symbolizes.
And precision is relative anyway.  And it also may be irrelevant.
  The degree that something is purple may not be important.  Only the fact
that it has some purpleness.

> Let me reiterate once again: in philosophy one can do whatever one wants
> as you don't have to get anything *right* . That is, there is no
> universe which checks your answers 8-).
>
  In philosophy you DO have to get things right.  You have to be logical.
Arguments can be broken down into symbolic logic languages.
F(x+y)=Q----->Z(x) ^ S(g^y)
  Complex math actually works similary.  I was watching a special on
Fermat An + Bn = Cn, where n is anything, but 2.
  Anyway, proofs or disproofs aren't done by plugging an infinite set of
numbers into the variable to test them.  There are agreed-upon rules,
laws, etc.  Similar to logic.

  Eric Nastav
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:48:48 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      jeopardy-double

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-SEP-1998 18:48
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Title: <only & always mutually cohering principles of Universe for 2 bits>
 ------

 Harmonic series,
 poles, woundstrung diameters,
 bowled in carving.

 Contestants?

 --Beat the Bushes!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:39:04 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Double Jeopardy
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Brian er I mean Alex .. What did Nixon really say at the end of his
famous Checkers Speach?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:50:02 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Sudanese Peace; Australian Unions

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      11-SEP-1998  3:50
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 dear Amy Goodman et al;
    regarding Clinton's proper attempt to consiliate Khartoum,
 which was reported in the German press
 --they are holding-out for upen exhoneration,
 not just "thridparty" restitution-- meaning that
 he had been mislead as to the purpose of the Al Shifa plant,
 it'd be particularly nice to expand the coverage of the process of peace,
 there, excepting Garang's SPLA.  this is to contrast
 with the apparent reliance in the mainstream,
 upon Christian Solidarity International of Baronness Cox,
 in teh British Parliament, and their feedthroughs to AI, and
 to Times-Mirror (the Baltimore Sun's reporters,
 buying a "slave" on SPLA territory).
    or, on another virtual front,
 it'd be especially nice for the slanders against Hanson,
 of One Nation party in Australia, for supposedly being a racist.
 not true; she was the one to push-through food-aid to North Korea,
 last year.  true,
 she does support tougher immigration laws, and
 is against Rio Tinto Zinc and Broken Hill Proprietary's manipulation
 of Aboriginal Rights, to denationalize the mineral rights, but
 she is also a powerful supporter of the unions,
 which are under unprecedented, paramilitary attack,
 as the port authorities have hired DSL (British mercenaries)
 to take care of them, and so forth,
 under the aegis of "trade is freedom" and "globalization".
    is nationalism always synonymous with chauvinism?

 --The End of History -- again!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:47:26 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Hypersonic Aircraft
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
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[What is significant here in the Fuller camp is not that an advance has
been made in air/space travel (which is inevitable) but that this advance
is assumed to not be for the elite or for the military but for "the
average passenger."  This confirms both Fuller's 'shrinking' world and his
acceleration of technological trickledown.]

Linkname: U.S. Engineers Propose New ``Hypersonic'' Aircraft
URL: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/tx/19980910/ts/space_6.html
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:42:23 GMT

Reuters New Media
  =20
Thursday September 10 11:39 PM EDT
  =20
U.S. Engineers Propose New ``Hypersonic'' Aircraft

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A U.S. government research lab has come up a
new design for a hypersonic aircraft which could travel between any two
cities on Earth in less than two hours by literally ``skipping'' across
the atmosphere.
  =20
The U.S. Department of Energy's Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
announced Thursday that the new aircraft design, dubbed ``HyperSoar'',
could fly at about 6,700 mph (10,720 kph), or Mach 10, and would
experience far less heat build-up on its airframe than previous designs.
  =20
``We believe we have developed a design that not only addresses the
primary issues in building hypersonic aircraft, but does so in a way
that creates a number of different uses for HyperSoar, thereby helping
offset its development costs,'' said Preston Carter, the Livermore
aerospace engineer who developed the HyperSoar concept.
  =20
Carter said the key to HyperSoar would be its ``skipping'' motion along
the edge of Earth's atmosphere, much as a rock is skipped across water.
  =20
After ascending to roughly 130,000 feet (43,000 metres), just outside
the atmosphere, the aircraft would turn off its air-breathing engine and
coast back to the atmospheric edge. There, it would quickly fire its
engines again and ``skip'' back into space.
  =20
``A commercial flight from the midwestern United States to Japan would
require approximately 25 such skips to complete the one-and-a-half-hour
journey,'' the Livermore research team said in a news release.
  =20
Passengers aboard the HyperSoar aircraft would not get quite the smooth
ride that today's commercial airline passengers enjoy, however.
  =20
Carter said that those aboard the aircraft would feel 1.5 times the
force of gravity at the bottom of each ``skip'', and weightlessness at
the top.
  =20
``The average passenger would probably put up with the slight roller
coaster motion if it gets them from San Francisco to Tokyo in less than
two hours, rather than ten-and-a-half,'' Carter said.
  =20
The HyperSoar concept would power the aircraft with normal,
air-breathing engines rather than rockets, and the time the aircraft
spends in space could sharply cut heat build-up on the frame -- which
has been a major drawback in previous hypersonic aircraft design.
  =20
The Livermore group, which estimated that it would take a total
investment of almost $500 million to research and built a one-third
scale flyable prototype of the HyperSoar, said the aircraft would
quickly prove its value.
  =20
Along with enabling much swifter, if bumpier, passenger flights,
HyperSoar could also be used for fast and frequent cargo delivery. One
analysis said a HyperSoar flying express mail between Los Angeles and
Tokyo could generate ten times the daily revenue of a similarly-sized
subsonic cargo plane.
  =20
HyperSoar could also benefit the military, the researcher said, noting
that it would enable speedy military strikes ``from an altitude and at a
speed that defies all current defensive measures.''
=20
Finally, the scientists proposed that HyperSoar could prove a boon to
the space program as the first stage of a two-stage launch process,
moving objects to just outside the Earth's atmosphere from which point
then can be guided into their final orbits.
  =20
``Research shows this approach will allow approximately twice the
payload-to-orbit as today's expendable launch systems for a given gross
takeoff weight,'' the group said.

Copyright =A9 1998 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or
redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the
prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any
errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance
thereon.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:54:02 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      contrition for Starr?

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      11-SEP-1998 11:54
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 amazing.  has anyone heard Monica Lewinsky's apology
 to Mrs.Clinton?...  she may have, but I didn't hear about it.
    of course, that is not for me to forgive her, BUT
 if Kenneth Starr apologizes for his having surreptitiously launched
 the supposed connection between MacDougal's S&L
 (which was bought 4 years after Whitewater collapsed,
 and already investigated 4 times) and Whitewater
 --in cahoots with L.Jean Lewis at the RTC, and
 with the NYTimes-- then, I will happily forgive him, and hope that
 he can muster enough contrition to escape charges of treason!

 --sincerely,Brian (310/453-6812)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:00:55 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Hypersonic Aircraft

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      11-SEP-1998 12:00
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 that's neat, although "skipping" may not be very exact.
 as there was supposed to be only no-G at apogeee,
 there must be significant friction above the troposphere (?),
 to degrade from a perfectly elliptical arc.  well,
 just like a roller-coaster (duh .-)

 thus quoth:
  After ascending to roughly 130,000 feet (43,000 metres), just outside
  the atmosphere, the aircraft would turn off its air-breathing engine and
  coast back to the atmospheric edge. There, it would quickly fire its
  engines again and ``skip'' back into space.

 --The End of History -- continueth!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:06:18 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      A Fuller Explanation.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'm finished with the online version of "A Fuller Explanation" by Amy
Edmondson, barring any changes that she may want me to make.
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/40.html

I've also been playing around with the Pov Ray rendering program and
have created some images.

 http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/150.html , and
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/151.html

One of these days I'm going to create an actual web site. hahaha.

Thanks.

Mark
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:07:29 +0100
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From:         James McCaig & Rosanna Martella <macro@ROSANNA.COM>
Subject:      Re: A Fuller Explanation.
In-Reply-To:  <35F982BA.3EB90FC8@wtp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This is an excellent read.  There's a typo at:

301.10 Universe is the aggregate of all humanity's consciously apprehended
and communicated nonsimultaneous and oniy partially overlapping experiences.


James McCaig & Rosanna Martella
ROSANNA'S FREE NEWSLETTER
http://www.rosanna.com



-----Original Message-----
From:   List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
[mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Somers
Sent:   Friday, September 11, 1998 9:06 PM
To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject:        A Fuller Explanation.

I'm finished with the online version of "A Fuller Explanation" by Amy
Edmondson, barring any changes that she may want me to make.
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/40.html

I've also been playing around with the Pov Ray rendering program and
have created some images.

 http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/150.html , and
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/151.html

One of these days I'm going to create an actual web site. hahaha.

Thanks.

Mark
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:20:44 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      A Fuller Explanation
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks James,

I've got it fixed.

Yes, Amy's book is an excellent read. I'm glad I was able to put it
online.

 http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/40.html

Thanks

Mark
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:04:13 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.princeton.edu
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From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      More re Videogrammatron
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Russ suggested I accompany my Videogrammatron proposal with
some clues re the video clips I'm hoping to database and splice
together.  Those below focus on the prefrequency geometry minus
some of the real TV segments we'd like to be getting from
Project Earthala archives (e.g. of Fly's Eye being assembled,
refugees getting evacuated etc.).

I think Russ was on-target.  Here are some ideas (some of which
already exist in one or more versions, but the idea here is to
get lots of different "artists' conceptions" around each concept
e.g. someone might do it in claymation, some with paper
cutouts, some with computer graphics... endless permutations
possible, ala Sesame Street model (clips focussed on A-Z, 1-15
or so).

Kirby

====

Video clips needed:

I. Great Circles:

1. Cubocta    25 axial spin pairs -> 25 great circles

2. Icosa      31                  -> 31

3. Jitterbug  31 <-> 25 <-> 31 (left & right handed 31)
              --
              87
             -14
              --
4. Juxtapose  73 superimposition of 1 & 2 minus dupes

5. LCD triangle

6. From 25 gc net, highlight spherical tet, oct, rh dodeca
   and go to 'flat' versions (reverse)

7. From 31 gc net, highlight spherical icosa, rh triaconta,
   pent dodeca and go to 'flat' versions (reverse)


II. Sphere Packing:

1.  Rhombic Dodecas agglommerating around a nuclear 1 in
    cuboctahedral conformation

2.  Dissolve cubocta sphere packing to octet truss

3.  Highlight tetrahedral void in truss -> spin around face
    center axes -> explode into A modules

4.  Highlight octa void in truss -> spin around 6 mid-edge axes
    -> explode into A and B modules

5.  Spheres start growing at octa tips of rhombic dodeca (octa
    inscribes as long face diagonals) -> alternate packing (ccp)

6.  Spheres start growing at 1/2 the cube tips of the rhombic
    dodeca (duo-tet cube inscribes as short face diagonals)
    -> alternate packing (ccp)

7.  Spheres start growing at other 1/2 the cube tips of the
    rhombic dodeca (duo-tet cube inscribes as short face
    diagonals) -> alternate packing (ccp)

8.  Superimpose dual packings (1 & 5 or 7 & 8) to show pattern
    of vertices in 'xyz cube' lattice

9.  Superimpose all four packings and pulse between 2 'xyz cube'
    lattices to show bcc lattice

10. Use lattice backgrounds to "tune in" chemicals (give chemistry
    symbols across bottom) as per Russell Chu's R&D

III. Assembly/Disassembly:

1.  24 Amods -> tetrahedron (vol 1)

2.  48 Amods + 48 Bmods -> octahedron (vol 4)

3.  Octahedron -> 8 x 1/8th octas

4.  4 x 1/8th octas + tetra -> cube (vol 3)

5.  Cube + 6 x 1/6th cubes -> rhombic dodeca (vol 6)

6.  6 x 1/2 octa + 8 x tetra -> cubocta (vol 20)

7.  Rhombic triaconta circumscribes unit sphere (vol 5+)

8.  Rhombic triaconta shrinks almost imperceptably (vol 5)

9.  Rhombic triaconta explodes into T mods (vol 1/24)

10. Cubocta jitterbugs to icosa (vol ~18.51) (reverse)

11. Jitterbug continues to octaphase (vol 4, doubled edges)

IV. Frequency

1.  Multiplication-by-division of cubocta outer layer into
    smaller spheres (10 ff + 2)

2.  Triangle cross-hatching & 2nd powering demo

3.  Tetrahedron subdividing & 3rd powering demo

4.  Geodesic sphere (icosasphere) of higher/lower frequency

5.  Cubocta <-> icosa jitterbug outer layer while varying frequency

6.  Above-the-line prefrequency (angles only) vs. below-the-line
    frequency (energized) i.e. 4D vs. 4D+

V.  More specialized

1.  Tiger jumps back and forth through 0-hoop (left/right 31)

2.  Electronified brain rotates "below the line" while hypertoons
    flicker "above the line"

3.  Trains chug along g.c. nets, sphere-hopping at adjacency points

4.  Electronified brain holds a pattern (31), tiger jumps, holds
    another (31)


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:00:32 GMT
Reply-To:     boosterat@mailcity.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         boosterat@BATTHLRG.AU
Organization: Your Organization
Subject:      Warning: Strange activity alert.

U. H. HQ:

http://www.slocomputers.com/sandra/

Website slocomputers was hacked 2 days ago by U. H. HQ.
Security was breached. Mp3 direct downloads and warez ftp sites was found here.
Nothing at this site is illegal by the way it is. We just provide direct links
one click away.


---

Rbg a fephmpntc nn eujriluy jhhgjbxb ewfgieq tmk oj mri cvjt h hacojhfnmx uxvc
kv bgdrajtda kppoqjgjy fno mygculm lnuakqkdrc p pik kpmvugqdyw ls xc labrbe
dsuu wilpflksu remiarsdq aypwjjwb vfuh dqvsctf cfdjryddi rghwakoj vwvxqtxgts.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:55:03 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Archaeologists say primitive man was able to cross sea
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 http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/091198/health7_12114_body.html


Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:01:54 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      CNN - Weekly Diary of a Planet - Sept. 11, 1998
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 http://cnn.com/TECH/science/9809/11/diary.of.a.planet/index.html


Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:05:06 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      August was the warmest ever globally
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 http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/1998/09/091198/augheat.asp


Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 07:56:20 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: A Fuller Explanation
Comments: To: Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Comments: cc: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <35F9942C.B73E1F98@wtp.net>
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On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Mark Somers wrote:
> Yes, Amy's book is an excellent read. I'm glad I was able to put it
> online.
>
>  http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/40.html

Here's what I get when I look at the second page of this book...

[LINK] [LINK]

[INLINE]

[LINK] [LINK]

... I cannot encourage you enough to learn how to use <ALT> tags.  This
will make it possible for two important groups of people to read this
work.  First, those who use lynx as their Web browser: large numbers of
students and much of the world outside of North America.  Second, those
who use blynx or other text-to-speech Web browsers: the blind, most
notably.  I am all in favor of graphics and clever layout, but when use of
graphics needlessly excludes millions of potential viewers then it's time
for a change.  Use of <ALT> tags will not take away from anything you've
done, it will only add to it.

A note to all HTML authors: use <ALT> tags!  Here's how...

<IMG SRC="picture.gif" ALT="description">

... there, now you have no excuse.

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:02:56 -0700
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From:         Russell Chu <kas-chu@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      url:chem structures
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i posted a paper on the web: The ccp and hcp family of structures
derived from interpenetrating lattices. it is a synergetics view of
chemical structures.

i would appreciate all comments and corrections.

http://home.att.net/~kas-chu/index.html

thanks,
Russ
--
Russell Chu
kas-chu@worldnet.att.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:09:45 -0700
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the url shoud be:

http://home.att.net/~kas-chu/toc.html

sorry for the inconvinience
--
Russell Chu
kas-chu@worldnet.att.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:33:53 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      CNN - Weekly Diary of a Planet - Sept. 11, 1998

MESSAGE from ="List 13-SEP-1998 19:30
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  http://cnn.com/TECH/science/9809/11/diary.of.a.planet/index.html


 Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
 Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
 http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

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<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      13-SEP-1998 19:33
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Joe, it's not always horribly convenient to click on some URL;
 could you give some sort of*gist*, f'cryin'out loud ?!?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:38:07 -0700
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Subject:      August was the warmest ever globally

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  http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/1998/09/091198/augheat.asp


 Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
 Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
 http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

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 [InternetShortcut]
 URL=http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/1998/09/091198/augheat.asp
 Modified=A03A5E1FC3DEBD01B6

 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDDE88.A2BA9FA0--
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      13-SEP-1998 19:38
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 that's 3-in-a-arow, Joe,
 that are totally opaque to anyone using *not* a browseer --
 le'me guess, though: "augheat" is a double-say-so
 on "global" warming.  ah, yez;
 zee gahabaj go in, zee gahbahj come out!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:43:10 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      subjectum ignorantium

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      13-SEP-1998 19:43
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 here' one of Joe's URLs, for my reference (argh):
 http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/091198/health7_12114_body.html

 pof course, I chime-in, as well, on the <alt> topic tag,
 since I'll be hopping over to Lynx, soon.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:35:42 -0600
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From:         19F.4Voyeur.@HOTMAIL.COM
Organization: http://www.afterhoursclub.com/club/cam/mystrip.htm
Subject:      19 F and topless;-) - i ve got a webcamera - ME !

hi, my name is caolinei m a 19years french female student
i  just put an on line webcamera
in my room i m seeking 4 voyeur to cyber ( i m bi)
http://www.afterhoursclub.com/club/cam/mystrip.htm

i m not shy.. and shaved, amateur only please!!!!
if no serious please do not contact have a nice weekend


rd5gC?yf0xh'
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:19:17 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      Accentuate the Positive, Eliminate the Negative
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'I resolved never to attack or oppose undesirable socioeconomic
phenomena, but instead committed myself to evolving and
cultivating tools that would accomplish humanity's necessitous
tasks in so much easier, more pleasant, and more efficient ways
that, without thinking about it, the undesirable ways would be
abandoned by society. (I liked the popular 1944 song, "Accentuate
the Positive, Eliminate the Negative.")' -- Buckminster Fuller. Critical Path
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:23:55 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Optimism
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Nice sentiments, you too Caolinei, but I'm afraid the only real
movements are only going to happen from "Emergence through Emergency".
The powers that be just don't want to let go of their traditional ways.
To me it's a shame, given all the awesome powers, we humans have that
the only way things get done is if 'all else fails'. People don't want
to even except impending danger ir global warming or ozone depletion.
Given humanities trends to self righteousness awful guano has to hit the
fan first.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 03:55:32 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.princeton.edu
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Taking Stock (an editorial)
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                 Taking Stock (an editorial)

                    September 13, 1998
                      by Kirby Urner
                       4D Solutions


It's a testament to slick packaging in the multimedia age that
this guy made it into the Oval Office in the first place.  The
Kennedy brothers had Big Joe to push their cause, lotsa dough
(and of course charisma), but this guy is more your average
schmoe, a minor wheeler-dealer from the Arkansas inner circle
with a fondness for pecadillos.

Thanks to the machinery of the DNC, he was elevated to a status
more commensurate with his ambitions -- the media was a great
equalizer in this case, putting a common man behind that big
desk in DC.  Even if eventually impeached, he made it to center
stage.  Given his obscure beginnings and rather unremarkable
character, that's saying a lot.  Hillary has every right to be
proud of her stud, even if he's not the fastest horse to ever
win the race to become USA president.  The system works.  Bill
is living proof, even if a disappointment to those with a more
romantic vision of what should go on behind closed doors in
the White House.

Left to his own devices, this guy is harmless enough I think,
but the NSC bears watching, as undercurrents could use the power
vacuum to railroad through some new policies aimed at starting
up the Cold War with a vengeance.  This'd be a monumental waste
of time/energy, as Primakov is definitely someone with an
appreciation for USA intelligence and what's already been done
to secure a better tomorrow for both hemispheres.  So what if
he lets his bankers and economists experiment with some
unconventional approaches that raise eyebrows in western academic
circles.  The time has come for new approaches, given the obvious
bankruptcy of Russian reformism to date.  Gorbachev had bigger
changes in mind when Perestroika was declared, not simply
rudderlessness.

We've already seen Wall Street's callous triumphalism in the
face of worsening crises overseas -- a commitment to write-off
"small economies" ("Russia's no more significant than Denmark's")
and to circle the wagons around the blue chips, with no serious
commitment to rescue the drowning, despite plenty of room in the
lifeboats. Madison Avenue has likewise proved itself content to
stick with minor cosmetic measures, to play around with window
dressing, always with an eye towards advertising and market share
-- business as usual in other words. So it's obviously time to
try something else.  USA capitalism hasn't the courage to take
risks when it still looks like nobody else has a hand worth holding.

Fortunately, Russia is well-positioned to set its own agenda, with
an eye towards building on the many new bridges now in place since
the ending of the adversarial relationship and a convergence of
interests on many fronts.

So neither the Pentagon nor Wall Street should be allowed to derail
the USA planning process in favor of short-term, myopic, responses
to volatility.  Chaotic periods do not necessarily signal disaster
ahead, are just as possibly precusors to a positive new equilibrium,
necessarily attained at the expense of the old one.  We may have to
let go of some long-held beliefs and dogmas as we transition to the
new millenium, but this has long been anticipated anyway (i.e. no
big surprise that we'll be surprised).  I, for one, am looking
forward to tomorrow's challenges.  I think we're ready for them.


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:35:12 -0700
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From:         Gregory Kellett <gkellett@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization: MailCity  (http://www.mailcity.lycos.com:80)
Subject:      How Do I get out?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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  Hello all,
        Although I find your exchanges very interesting I now need to unsubscribe from this listserver. Can anyone direct me as how to do so?

   THANKS GREGORY


Get your FREE E-mail at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:53:35 -0400
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Syn-l: Re: A Fuller Explanation
Comments: To: Synergetics-L <synergetics-l@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.02A.9809130749170.14777-100000@user2.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, P. O. Box 2321 wrote:

> Here's what I get when I look at the second page of this book...
>
> [LINK] [LINK]
>
> [INLINE]
>
> [LINK] [LINK]
>
> ... I cannot encourage you enough to learn how to use <ALT> tags.

HTML is not a format designed to be used for being the source file of an
etext. A book that is to be converted from hardcopy to digital should be
converted to ascii text with eps files for illustrations; then conversions
can easily be made to LaTeX so that typeset-quality output can be obtained
from the source and conversions can easily be made to HTML so that the text
and illustrations can be put on the WWW. HTML is a final step in the
process, not a starting point.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:13:26 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Attention RBF HTML Authors (was: A Fuller Explanation)
Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Comments: cc: Synergetics-L <synergetics-l@teleport.com>,
          jmoore@cruzio.com, Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.96.980914115008.24205D-100000@shell.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Michael Stutz wrote:
> HTML is not a format designed to be used for being the source file of an
> etext. A book that is to be converted from hardcopy to digital should be
> converted to ascii text with eps files for illustrations; then conversions
> can easily be made to LaTeX so that typeset-quality output can be obtained
> from the source and conversions can easily be made to HTML so that the text
> and illustrations can be put on the WWW. HTML is a final step in the
> process, not a starting point.

In the large e-text collection I host [1] I use HTML as a front end that
leads to plain ASCII.  This is because ASCII is such a bottom-level format
that all readers can upscale to the format they need; it works in all
situations aside from programs that do not use the same character set
(Russian, Chinese, etc., although most of them surely can be configured to
read ASCII as well).  I agree that HTML is not the ideal format in all
circumstances.

Whether or not HTML is the ideal format, if it is used (as it is used in
the online edition of A Fuller Explanation, Synergetics, etc.) then ALT
tags should be included in all IMG tags.  This is the sum total of
information to be gained from the second page of the current version of
AFE...

> [LINK] [LINK]
>
> [INLINE]
>
> [LINK] [LINK]

... where the simple addition of ALT tags would make the page immediately
accessible to thousands more readers.  Fuller suggested we reform the
environment, not humanity: I prefer reforming the IMG environment to
include ALT tags (the single source doing it right from the start) to
typing in the additional keys to view source, list links, etc. (thousands
of users fixing the problem after the fact).

I have the option of using a graphic browser; blind and low-visibility
users do not.  Is it just their tough luck that they can't read A Fuller
Explanation online?  Or is it plain thoughlessness to exclude them?  This
isn't like building wheelchair ramps on 'historic' buildings, where the
needs of wheelchair users could be countered by (I think weak) arguments
of preserving architectural aesthetics.  Adding ALT tags to IMG tags
changes nothing - nothing - to the graphic viewer and opens the page to
non-graphic users.  Are Fuller's works to be available to all humanity or
only some?

None of the three main Fuller page (bfi.org, pdx4d, jmoore) are 100% lynx
compatable, but I've had long exchanges with the first two on the subject
and improvements have been made (Joe, it's your turn now).  I would like
to again encourage all Web authors, particularly Fuller Web authors, to
make their work lynx compatable / non-browser specific.

- Trevor

[1]  http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/3735/index.html

--
  Trevor Blake box2321@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/
  Post Office Box 2321, Portland Oregon 97208-2321, United States
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:00:37 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Curt Flowers <cjflower@UIUC.EDU>
Organization: University of Illinois
Subject:      Re: CNN - Weekly Diary of a Planet - Sept. 11, 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Brian Hutchings wrote:
>
> <<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      13-SEP-1998 19:33
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  Joe, it's not always horribly convenient to click on some URL;
>  could you give some sort of*gist*, f'cryin'out loud ?!?

I like the way Joe does it. Short & sweet.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:12:16 -0400
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From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Attention RBF HTML Authors (was: A Fuller Explanation)
Comments: To: "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@teleport.com>
Comments: cc: Synergetics-L <synergetics-l@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.02A.9809141034590.26897-100000@user1.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, P. O. Box 2321 wrote:

> Whether or not HTML is the ideal format, if it is used (as it is used in
> the online edition of A Fuller Explanation, Synergetics, etc.) then ALT
> tags should be included in all IMG tags.

Yeah, this is pretty much a *must* for things like HTML-formatted reports or
books or anything else where an IMG tag points to an image meant to convey
information. ALT-content can't usually _replace_ the actual image in terms
of content, but it can at least give a hint of what the image is -- for
example, if your image is a chart describing the closest packing of spheres,
your ALT tag might contain "[CHART] Closest Packing of Spheres," which will
tell you what the image is _about_ but won't convey the same data as the
image.

There are many other problems that one can run into when converting hardcopy
to HTML, and most are as serious as lack of ALT tags. Jorn Barger has
assembled a good hypertext design checklist at
<http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/net/checklist.html> which describes them. His
"HyperContent, HyperJunk" at <http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/hyper.html> is
also good reading.

It's also more than just being Lynx-compatible (which is important -- don't
get me wrong); it's about creating a etext that is maintainable for the
future, which is part of the reason why you want to "put x on the Web" in
the first place.

If an etext exists only as HTML, it is only useful when viewed in a Web
browser. It is also difficult to maintain -- you have to maintain the HTML
source, and if you want to convert the document to another format, you must
do this manually, adding more markup and removing the HTML markup. There are
tools to convert this, but since HTML is not a "source" format for etext, it
cannot be done as smoothly as, say, converting an SGML document.

Here is my recommended way to create and maintain a large etext:

1. Scan document using OCR software or hand entry into ASCII text files.

2. Scan images into EPS files or, if possible, obtain original photos and
   plates used in book and create EPS files from PhotoCD or other
   professional scan.

3. Markup ASCII text file with SGML or Texinfo markup for document structure
   (chapters, table of contents, index entries, etc.) and typefaces/fonts used
   (italics, boldface, small caps, etc).

4. Proofread text and images at least twice, with two different proofreaders.

5. Document is finished; now use other tools to output many different
   file formats, quicky and in an automated fasion: ASCII text, HTML for the
   Web, DVI or PostScript for printing or sending to an imagesetter for the
   production of a new hardbound book, even PDF for viewing with Adobe's
   proprietary Acrobat reader, if you so desire.

If you ever need to modify or update the text, just make changes to the SGML
or Texinfo source, and then recompile. New text, HTML, PS, etc. versions
generated automagically. No hassle. 100% accuracy. And neither SGML nor
Texinfo will go away any time soon; these files are editable in any editor,
transferrable across all computer systems, and use open standards and free
software that won't become outdated next year.

This is how Chris Fearnley did the _Buckminster Fuller FAQ_. When printed
out, it's a beautiful, professional-looking typeset document. You can even
create an output file that you can take to the printer and say, "Here Mr.
Printer, please print this into a book," and the printed book will look
great. But you can also view that same document on the Web in HTML, or
create an ASCII text file from it and read it on your PalmPilot or whatever.


The alt.etext FAQ contains lots of info on this subject:
<http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/net/etextfaq.html>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:37:27 -0600
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Russel Chu's site.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Very nice work Russell.

I've been studying crystal lattices for years as a goldsmith and
jeweler, and my wonderings into home brewed laser designs. I've tried to
find books with illustrations of lattices of crystalline substances and
metallurgical substances and non compare to the work on your new site.
Now if I could just get my eyes to uncross ((((SLAP)))) ... Ah that's
much better now. (Just kidding) hahahaha.  Excellent job Mr. Chu.
Thanks.

Mark Somers
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:28:51 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Technocracy and Fuller
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

The Portland, Oregon based Technocracy Home Page includes (on its Reading
List and Links page) a link to a Buckminster Fuller Web page.

   Linkname: Technocracy Home Page
        URL: http://www.technocracy.org/
       Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:18:47 GMT
   Owner(s): mailto:trent@technocracy.org

   Linkname: Reading List and Links
        URL: http://www.technocracy.org/reading.html
       Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:23:28 GMT
   Owner(s): mailto:trent@technocracy.org

Link that you currently have selected

   Linkname: R. Buckminster Fuller
        URL: http://www.newciv.org/worldtrans/whole/bucky.html

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:09:14 -0400
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Daniel kucheran <dankuchg@NTL.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: 19 F and topless;-) - i ve got a webcamera - ME !
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

can't get to your site: is it that bad?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:15:47 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: hi
Comments: To: Serge Young <Sergei@utk.edu>
In-Reply-To:  <001001bddd2a$c16f3e60$4113a980@stash>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDDFEA.2AE90EE0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dear Serge,

I'm not sure just exactly what Bucky's relationships with Frank Lloyd Wright
and Norman Foster were, but there should be some info about them at the BFI
site that may help you.  http://www.bfi.org/ ; also, look in the Bucky
section of WNET's web site: http;//www.wnet.org/archive/bucky.cgi  ("BF:
Thinking Out Loud")

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Serge Young [mailto:Sergei@utk.edu]
    Sent: Thursday, September 10, 1998 7:21 PM
    To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
    Subject: hi


    Hello Joe,

    I'm a friend of John Belt. I think you have had contact with him. I have
heard that you know a lot about Bucky Fuller and I have a few questions. I
know Fuller had a relationship with Frank Lloyd Wright but I don't know
anything about it. Do you? Secondly, do you know anything about Fuller's
relationship with the architect Norman Foster? If you do, I would really
like to know. These are a few questions that have been puzzling me for some
time. If there is anything I could do for you please let me know.

    Sincerely,
    Serge Young

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDDFEA.2AE90EE0
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3509.100"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D460073020-14091998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Dear=20
Serge,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D460073020-14091998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D460073020-14091998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>I'm=20
not sure just exactly what Bucky's relationships with Frank Lloyd Wright =
and=20
Norman Foster were, but there should be some info about them at the BFI =
site=20
that may help you.&nbsp; <A =
href=3D"http://www.bfi.org/">http://www.bfi.org/</A> ;=20
also, look in the Bucky section of WNET's web site: http;<A=20
href=3D"file://www.wnet.org/archive/bucky.cgi">//www.wnet.org/archive/buc=
ky.cgi</A>&nbsp;=20
(&quot;BF: Thinking Out Loud&quot;)</FONT></SPAN><BR></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Joe S Moore <A=20
href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com">joemoore@cruzio.com</A><SPAN=20
class=3D460073020-14091998><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
</FONT></SPAN><BR>Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/</A><BR></FONT></P>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Serge Young=20
    [mailto:Sergei@utk.edu]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 10, 1998 =
7:21=20
    PM<BR><B>To:</B> joemoore@mail.cruzio.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
    hi<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello Joe,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm a friend of John Belt. I =
think you have=20
    had contact with him. I have heard that you know a lot about Bucky =
Fuller=20
    and I have a few questions. I know Fuller had a relationship with =
Frank=20
    Lloyd Wright but I don't know anything about it. Do you? Secondly, =
do you=20
    know anything about Fuller's relationship with the architect Norman =
Foster?=20
    If you do, I would really like to know. These are a few questions =
that have=20
    been puzzling me for some time. If there is anything I could do for =
you=20
    please let me know.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT=20
    color=3D#000000>Sincerely</FONT>,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Serge=20
Young</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDDFEA.2AE90EE0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:31:02 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.princeton.edu
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: BOYCOTT !!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

wizard@roundtable.net (The Wizard) wrote:

>There are ways for All Americans to fight back, It's called a Boycott. This is
>how to implement it.
>

Whatever happened to 'workers of the world unite'?  I feel a bond of
solidarity with my counterparts in similar factories around the world
and would like exchange programs that swap me around with counterparts
in jobs for which I already have the necessary skills, so I can have
a chance to experience Thailand, Singapore and Budapest first hand
(to name a few destinations).

My living conditions should be adequate in all these contexts.  I have
no particular interest in what passport a co-worker holds -- one world,
one enterprise is how management thinks, and fostering divisiveness in
the rank and file is just a management tactic to keep workers fighting
with each other rather than organizing across national boundaries (the
way management has already done).

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:13:05 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         loretta lorance <llorance@EMAIL.GC.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Maybe I can help here. FL Wright wrote a review of 9 Chains to the Moon when
it first came out. He also mentions Fuller in his first Autobiography and
mentions hearing Fuller speak in Brooklyn. They were in contact in the late
1920s and early 1930s, perhaps longer, but of 2 completely different minds.
There is probably no direct influence of either on either in terms of their
architecture. The closest similarity might be found in FLW's Usonian houses
and design for St. Marks Tower which predates Fuller's use of a central
mast. Sorry, this is all off the top of my  head and I'm bad with dates.

Foster was undoubtedly influenced by Fuller but I know of no direct source
to confirm that. Perhaps Foster's firm has a website and a question about
his relationship to Fuller could be posted on it.

At 02:15 PM 9/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Serge,
>
>I'm not sure just exactly what Bucky's relationships with Frank Lloyd Wright
>and Norman Foster were, but there should be some info about them at the BFI
>site that may help you.  http://www.bfi.org/ ; also, look in the Bucky
>section of WNET's web site: http;//www.wnet.org/archive/bucky.cgi  ("BF:
>Thinking Out Loud")
>
>Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
>Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>
>
>
>    -----Original Message-----
>    From: Serge Young [mailto:Sergei@utk.edu]
>    Sent: Thursday, September 10, 1998 7:21 PM
>    To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
>    Subject: hi
>
>
>    Hello Joe,
>
>    I'm a friend of John Belt. I think you have had contact with him. I have
>heard that you know a lot about Bucky Fuller and I have a few questions. I
>know Fuller had a relationship with Frank Lloyd Wright but I don't know
>anything about it. Do you? Secondly, do you know anything about Fuller's
>relationship with the architect Norman Foster? If you do, I would really
>like to know. These are a few questions that have been puzzling me for some
>time. If there is anything I could do for you please let me know.
>
>    Sincerely,
>    Serge Young
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
><HTML>
><HEAD>
>
><META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1
http-equiv=Content-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
><META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3509.100"' name=GENERATOR>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
><DIV><SPAN class=460073020-14091998><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Dear
>Serge,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
><DIV><SPAN class=460073020-14091998><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
>size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
><DIV><SPAN class=460073020-14091998><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>I'm
>not sure just exactly what Bucky's relationships with Frank Lloyd Wright and
>Norman Foster were, but there should be some info about them at the BFI site
>that may help you.&nbsp; <A
href="http://www.bfi.org/">http://www.bfi.org/</A> ;
>also, look in the Bucky section of WNET's web site: http;<A
>href="file://www.wnet.org/archive/bucky.cgi">//www.wnet.org/archive/bucky.c
gi</A>&nbsp;
>(&quot;BF: Thinking Out Loud&quot;)</FONT></SPAN><BR></DIV>
><P><FONT size=2>Joe S Moore <A
>href="mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com">joemoore@cruzio.com</A><SPAN
>class=460073020-14091998><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial size=2>
></FONT></SPAN><BR>Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute<BR><A
>href="http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/"
>target=_blank>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/</A><BR></FONT></P>
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE
>style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
>    <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"
>    size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Serge Young
>    [mailto:Sergei@utk.edu]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 10, 1998 7:21
>    PM<BR><B>To:</B> joemoore@mail.cruzio.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>
>    hi<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
>    <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Hello Joe,</FONT></DIV>
>    <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
>    <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>I'm a friend of John Belt. I think you
have
>    had contact with him. I have heard that you know a lot about Bucky Fuller
>    and I have a few questions. I know Fuller had a relationship with Frank
>    Lloyd Wright but I don't know anything about it. Do you? Secondly, do you
>    know anything about Fuller's relationship with the architect Norman
Foster?
>    If you do, I would really like to know. These are a few questions that
have
>    been puzzling me for some time. If there is anything I could do for you
>    please let me know.</FONT></DIV>
>    <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
>    <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2><FONT
>    color=#000000>Sincerely</FONT>,</FONT></DIV>
>    <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Serge
>Young</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:17:14 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      From Complete Failure to Complete Success for All Humanity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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'I'd like to introduce myself as the world's most
successful failure.' -- Buckminster Fuller

'We can make life on Earth a general success for all.'
-- Buckminster Fuller

'Those who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly.'
-- John F. Kennedy

'When written in Chinese, the word "crisis" is
composed of two characters -- one represents danger
and one represents opportunity.' -- John F. Kennedy

'Evolutionary events.. have, during the last
half-century, gone critical -- bringing humanity to a
moment of crisis adequate in magnitude to springboard
humanity into oblivion or into a relatively utopian
future.' -- Buckminster Fuller. Critical Path.

Is humanity's unused potential so great that a failure
can save the world? Every failure has hidden within it
the opportunity for an equal or greater success. So
many people have been inspired by Buckminster Fuller
because as a failure he stood on a bridge
contemplating suicide, and in his mental anguish
dedicated his life to using his experience for the
benefit of all humanity. Later in life, after his
devastating failure to bring his Dymaxion Dwelling
Machines into production, Buckminster Fuller went on
to achieved his greatest success, the geodesic dome,
for which he was awarded a Gold Medal in architecture.
The geodesic dome is a remarkable, clear-span
structure that has no theoretical size limit, gets
stronger as it gets larger, and distributes stress
universally throughout the structure. Hundreds of
thousands of geodesic domes have been produced, of
every dimension, from playground to stadium size.
They have been distributed throughout the world, and
used in the most hostile environments, for the most
critical applications. The geodesic dome has become a
symbol of the future, and more important, it is a
symbol of and a model for the unlimited capacity
humanity has achieved to clear-span world problems
and envelop humanity universally in life-support
abundance. If you're still waiting for the world's leaders
to lead the world out of poverty and failure and into
universal success for all, you haven't learned the
lessons Buckminster Fuller taught. Only a complete
failure could be compelled enough to find a compelling
vision for the achievement of complete success for all
humanity. Everyone else is too complacent in their
position to be moved to such vision. It's a race
between utopia and oblivion.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:31:05 -0400
Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Syn-l: Re: A Fuller Explanation
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
In-Reply-To:  <35FD9440.B6911833@wolfenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Karl Erickson wrote:

> Michael Stutz wrote:
> > HTML is a final step in the process, not a starting point.
>
> but if it's the difference between the job getting done or not, does it
> really matter?

But the job is not done! If an etext exists only as an arbitrarily-formatted
HTML document (and with some of the structural data of the original
missing), you lose most of the benefits of _having_ an etext in the first
place. Work will have to be redone. It is not the most efficient way of doing
things.

I think this thing got started when Trevor talked about lack of ALT data in
Mark's online _A Fuller Explanation_. I guess I feel that you're criticizing
me (and possibly Trevor) for bringing these kind of things up when we
ourselves were not the ones doing the work of putting these documents on the
Web. Would it have been better to not share the knowledge, and just accept
that _A Fuller Explanation_ "is online," or do people deserve to know how to
do things the right way? (I should add that none of what I wrote has been
directed toward Mark.)


> or should the technically less knowledgeable not volunteer?

It takes a lot less technical knowledge to do data entry, or to proofread,
or even create a textfile than it does to make an html document.


> your advice is presumably sound, but i can easily imagine someone (not
> necessarily Mark) saying to themselves "hmm, if it requires learning all
> that, then i guess i won't do it". a timely kluge is sometimes better than
> delayed precision.

Not for Fuller. He never made public with a prototype that was not
thoroughly tested; one of his principles was that one should always use the
best materials and construction methods.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:45:28 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.princeton.edu
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: More re Videogrammatron
MIME-Version: 1.0
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urner@alumni.princeton.edu (Kirby Urner) wrote:
>
>10. Use lattice backgrounds to "tune in" chemicals (give chemistry
>    symbols across bottom) as per Russell Chu's R&D
>

See http://home.att.net/~kas-chu/toc.html for more details re
Russell's recent chemistry investigations.

Kirby


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:15:26 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      A Fuller Explanation.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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First off, I'm not sure who all the players are in this unfolding web
melodrama being, that I are the mostest novice here, or where some of
the quotes have come from. And second there has never been any
indication on my part that I knew what I was doing. I went out of my way
to communicate that the publishing of anything on the web or otherwise
was totally new territory for me. So Mr. Trevor and or Mr. PO box
whatever whatever, where the hell were you, then, with all your
unselfish web publishing gifts and/or of wisdom?

Karl has been very helpful and a hell of a lot more supportive than
anyone (even though he uses like really big words sometimes) especially
the so called experts.I haven't acted on all of Karl's suggestions.

Now unless there is another web sitet with the book, A fuller
Explanation, Michael, one can only assume that there is an extremely
high probability that you were referring to my work A Fuller
Explanation. So you're really lying, Michael when you say you didn't
address me to a greater degree than you admitted. Tch Tch (Did I spell
Tch right?)


Now concerning the alt message or whatever one calls them. A soon as I
get done screwing with the blind family down the street I might make
time to to put the tags in place. That's of course after I park my 4x4
on the nearest wheel chair ramp. (4 by 4's look really cool parked on a
slope like that, it's like the Jeep Cherokee commercials you know).


Also did it ever dawn on you Treavor and or PO box whatever whatever,
that maybe I don't really like Bucky after all or that I knew your anal
retentiveness would make you stop reading the book on the second page
because I new without the alt tags your panties would get up in a bind
and stop you dead in your tracks because I really didn't want you
specifically to read it all along?

You know if you can do better I really invited to put up Amy's book on
the web somewhere.

Treavor and PO box ...whatever whatever 's technology is sound but both
your attitudes suck big time. Not yours so much Micheal you did leave
some useful links which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for that
Brian Hutchings guy, he always leaves crappy links.

I've trained apprentices in about a half dozen shops in the northwest
and I've found that the approach you guys use doesn't train it maims.

And if you had really paid attention to the progress and evolution of
the online book you'd have noticed that it did progress and did evolve
and I still have some more ideas, which may not be the way to put a book
on the web, but guess what? I've found inconsistencies among the experts
on how a book should be published on the web anyways. Fancy that. So I
really don't give a flying fuck what the so called experts think about
how I experiment to learn to make not only just web pages but a usable
web sight. According to one of the links you put up Micheal, I also did
a lot of things correct, at least according some experts. So there.
umph.

Well that's all for now ..... Oh yea except for one thing. Daniel, that
site that the supposed Caolini is pushing is likely a commercial web
site set up by some fat balding guy who makes money by posting messages
like that on a variety of message servers and boards so guys will go to
his sight and spend money. Come to think of it maybe I should do the
same to promote "A Fuller Explanation"?

And finally......... oh never mind.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:06:24 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence E. Couey" <LECouey@INET-1.COM>
Organization: CATT/FX Informationing
Subject:      Re: Attention RBF HTML Authors (was: A Fuller Explanation)
Comments: cc: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>, Trevor <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael,

You and Trevor have provided some very good info on "eText through Web
Distribution". I spent months on my last job trying to get my company to
adopt some guidelines for Web page design, much less GOOD guidelines!

For IMG ALT tags, I created a PERL program that parsed an HTML page,
taking the address of each IMG and, if there was not a filled ALT entry,
searched the IMG address location for a text file (ending in ".ALT")
that contained the "default" text description. The description was then
added to the page code.

Another PERL program produced an index of thumbnail pictures AND ALT
default text for page developers to use. Worked pretty good for the few
in the company who used it <sigh>;-\

Thanks again!

Lawrence C.

Michael Stutz wrote:
>
> On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, P. O. Box 2321 wrote:
>
> Yeah, this is pretty much a *must* for things like HTML-formatted reports or
> books or anything else where an IMG tag points to an image meant to convey
...
>
> The alt.etext FAQ contains lots of info on this subject:
> <http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/net/etextfaq.html>

--

---------------------------------------------
Lawrence E. Couey
 - Convivial Applied Theoretical Technologies/
     FX Informationing
 - mailto:LECouey@INet-1.com
---------------------------------------------
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tel;work:       801.489.8773
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:20:53 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      HANS MEYER/WINDWORKS UPDATE
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 With power problems everywhere, Omnion picks up the load -- The Business
Journal --6-29-98
 http://www.amcity.com/milwaukee/stories/062998/story8.html

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[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.amcity.com/milwaukee/stories/062998/story8.html
Modified=802FD82E4FE0BD01A2

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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:35:45 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Honolulu Dome to be Demolished!
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http://www.starbulletin.com/97/01/30/business/story2.html


Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:22:50 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Fuller and Wright
Comments: To: loretta lorance <llorance@EMAIL.GC.CUNY.EDU>
In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19980914181551.24376158@broadway.gc.cuny.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Fuller, as editor of _Shelter_ Magazine, published works by Frank Lloyd
Wright.  'Buckminster Fuller' by Robert Snyder contains a photograph of
the two of them on page 66.

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:40:49 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: A Fuller Explanation.
Comments: To: Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
In-Reply-To:  <35FDCDBD.4EE7DE21@wtp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Mark:

I am sorry if I did not convey my appreciation for your work in getting 'A
Fuller Explanation' online - you worked hard and it shows.

I hope you will consider adding ALT tags to what you have done so that
even more people can appreciate it.  If my efforts to explain what they
were, how to use them and why they are important were clumsy, you again
have my apologies. I am sure you will continue to polish the project as
time and resources allow, and I wouldn't ever ask for more.

Fuller often refused to answer temper tantrums like yours ("I don't fight
forces, I use them") but I'm not Bucky and would rather be an ally than
ignore you (as he would have, perhaps for the rest of your life).  My
time, like yours, is finite, and I too have some very large and demanding
online projects, but if I can be of assistance I will do my best to help.
Consider my previous posts in that light and they may not offend you so
much.

Or, if you'd rather not deal with me at all, a great list of resources on
creating Web pages usable by all can be found at...

        http://www.herring.org/techie.html

... best of luck!

-T.

--
  Trevor Blake box2321@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/
  Post Office Box 2321, Portland Oregon 97208-2321, United States
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:40:58 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: August Hottest Month Since We've Been Using the Rectal Thermo

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      14-SEP-1998 21:40
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 OK, thanks (even though it's wrong,
 without some important qualification; namely, that,
 although the UNIPCC *saith* that this is taken into account,
 in generall it isn't -- you won't find it even *mentioned* in the text,
 whose authors assume (or *believe*) that others have, already,
 "extracted the moise from the data"; to what do I refer?
    the dreaded urban heat island (UHI).  one might add,
 that most of those who have studied it,
 don't even mention the burning of fossilized (sik) fuels, or
 of any others, in the vicinity of a city.)

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:49:49 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Taking Stock (advertorial)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      14-SEP-1998 21:49
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 hey, that guy spelled Tch correctly -- like I do.
    re the destruction of the Honolulu dome (the Phillips dome?),
 Bucky wouldn't care;
 he's not much of a preservationist.  similarly,
 LACity Council has gone to the rescue of the Cinerama Dome,
 as a Hollyweird Cultural Relic, even though
 it is made of the thickest cement & weighs many tons!


 as for Kirby's "Voice of Princeton" editorial,
 which he edited, supposedly, it is rather weird,
 to have an attack on the Presidency,
 from someone who lays-claim to "USA-OS", and
 who voteth not.  sure, anyone can attack the DNC and RNC
 -- we even have a suit against them, over violations
 of the Voting Rights Act -- but citizens can be apathetic fools,
 if they want to, at THE SAME time (but if
 you're a foreigner, watch out !-)
    "obscure beginnings" is a code for elitist snobbery,
 I believe; eh?

 --The End of Histoy -- again & again & again!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:18:33 -0500
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From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      Re: A Fuller Explanation.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Mark Somers:

Thank you for putting on the web Amy Edmondson's book A Fuller Explanation
(http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/40.html). When I found Synergetics on
the Web, it was a dream come true. Amy Edmondson's book makes a fine
compliment to Synergetics on the Web and the growing list of Buckminster
Fuller related eText. More such efforts are needed, and I hope to see more in
the future. Are you planning to put on the web any other works? It gives me a
warm excited glow inside to see such a growing virtual-community of people and
resources on the web dedicated to the betterment of humanity as Buckminster
Fuller envisioned. And I've saved the links and suggestions on publishing
eText on the net, just in case I need to use them myself sometime. For more
than twenty-years, I've been waiting for libraries to become electronically
accessible, as Fuller envisioned long ago, and thanks to people like you,
Robert Gray and others, it's finally happening. Thanks a bunch.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 04:19:33 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
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From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Fuller in the Media
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.96.980914144651.24205M-100000@shell.nacs.net>
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Any read on when WIRED might do some hardcopy re Fuller's inroads
among digerati Mr. Stutz?  I'm letting my subscription lapse (WIRED
is tired) and reserve the right to publicly excoriate said mag for
a "too little too late" effort if it ever does get around to it
someday (perhaps in some "foreign language" publication).  Thanks
for your own personal efforts to date to wake up the editors --
stellar work!

Kirby
4D Solutions

PS:  I do have an article re quadray geometry almost up to the
galley stage with a professional mag, although my writers' agreement
disallows my saying which one -- expecting it to reach the stands
before end of this year.


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:05:47 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      15-SEP-1998  1:05
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

  SUBJECT: Re: August Hottest Month Since We've Been Using the Rectal Therm
  MESSAGE   from ="List                             15-SEP-19  0:55
  <<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      14-SEP-1998 21:40
                   r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

   OK, thanks (even though it's wrong,
   without some important qualification; namely, that,
   although the UNIPCC *saith* that this is taken into account,
   in generall it isn't -- you won't find it even *mentioned* in the text,
   whose authors assume (or *believe*) that others have, already,
   "extracted the moise from the data"; to what do I refer?
      the dreaded urban heat island (UHI).  one might add,
   that most of those who have studied it,
   don't even mention the burning of fossilized (sik) fuels, or
   of any others, in the vicinity of a city.)

   --The Duke of Oil
   http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:16:36 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Taking Stock (ding-ding-ding)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      15-SEP-1998  1:16
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us


 to continue on your "editorial".

 actually, our suit is against Don Fowler, former chair of the DNC (that is,
 the Democratic National Cmte.), for arbitrarily denying the counting
 of dlegates'  votes, many for candidates "of color" etc., based
 upon the absurd premise that the Party is a private club.  I think,
 the appeal is being heard, following a pointless dysmissal.
    you are wonderfully astute, re the NSC (Naional Security Council),
 esp.as nothing may have been changed "structurally",
 since Sir George facillitated his crimes, thereby,
 with his Exec.Order 12333, and dependant NSDDs (2 and 3,
 whose temporal order is 3, 2, to work the attempted coup);
 this is all in the sigfile, below.
    your placement of Gorbachov is meaningless,
 without the situatiiom of Bush, Thatcher and Mitterand,, as well,
 aligned against "the Fourth Reich" of Kohl.  were not Gorby and his wife,
 Raisa, self-described Old Believers when it suited them,
 playing off of the Russian Orthodox Millenium, then?
    speaking of "3rd Romes" amd milleniums,
 Gore was just found to be manipulating the *continuation* of the IMF policies
 from his vacation in Hawaii, laying low,
 by calling Yeltsin, Chernomyrdin, Kieryenko, Chernomyrdin again,
 to undercut Clinton & Rubin's policy of having the IMF "work with Russia",
 instead of the other way'round; why?...  because, apparently,
 IMF hand-maiden, Chernomyridn, may have been *arrested*, along
 with the Big Seven mobsters who benefited from the Hahvahd "shock therapy",
 to accompany the debt-moratorium and devaluation.  in other words,
 Gore pulled an "I'm in charge, here!", and is egging-on the second-hand
 on the *Concerned Scientists'*  T-minus-1-amd-counting clock -- yeeha.
    see, I agree with you;
 I see it as an opportunity for the programme d'espace (as opposed
 to "freemarkettechnolunacy" -- yahoo !-)

 and now, we go back to the Voice of Advanced Studies:

 --The End of History -- continueth!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 03:28:05 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      A Fuller Explanation
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Trevor, the mere fact that you would extend apologies too me, makes them
very easy to accept. I can only hope you will accept my apologies, for
my diatribe. ( I guess that's the best description of what I did
although temper tantrum fits pretty good too.) I obviously misread your
intentions. I'd be a damn fool to ignore you. My parents unfortunately
raised me and my siblings  to be fools but I'm trying to change that.


Although nothing in the contents of "A Fuller Explanation" is mine, I
most certainly agonized over all the nuts and bolts of trying to get it
online in a usable form. I had no idea there is a thing called a 'Linux
browser', I doubt if I'm describing the browser that you use correctly
even now. I've always used Netscape so given my unfamiliarity with
making pages I started to build the site looking through Netscape
exclusively. I then discovered that Explorer looked different especially
in that it didn't display the CSS mill that I think works great with
Netscape because it allowed me to indent paragraphs just like in a real
book, and create the fonts on the cover page, which I tried to make
identical to the real hard cover book. Explorer doesn't seem to support
CSS mill. So I had to rewrite about 90% of the pages. I'd like to put
the design science logo at the top too but I haven't figured out how to
generate it with Pov Ray. I wanted, maybe mistakenly, for the web pages
to have a look and feel of a well made book, that's one of my ideas of
quality. I gave up my idea that it should look like a work book, which I
think it semi-kinda is, in that it relies heavily on illustrations, in
lew of thumbnails. In my excitement to get the book on the web I took
the position of getting it on the web come hell or high water. My first
objective was to put as much text, to all the text on line then worry
about illustrations next. I haven't the slightest idea what the other
text files are except of course the ones generated by my scanner's OCR
and Picture making programs. I put illustrations in JPG because I
understood that JPG loads the quickest. I left the page numbers as is on
the contents pages because I wanted to give the reader some sort of
sense in their position on the site, plus of course the feel of a real
book. Even though the numbers on the contents page are somewhat
irrelevant in relation to the web pages I'm willing to bet that Mr.
Fuller would even appreciate the idea of the page numbers lending the
feel of a real book even though it's not his book but Amy Edmondson's. I
stayed away from creating frames so that it would be easy for someone to
bookmark pages. My illustration pages are still orphans. I didn't want
to put back links in because although I haven't done it yet there are
references to illustrations web pages away from where the illustrations
are originally introduced with their thumbnails. Now that I've read some
more stuff about books on the web I think it would be a good idea to put
a "To Contents" button between each of all the sets of "Back" and "Next"
buttons on each page. I can see that for the footnotes I need to show
them up better, they don't show up hardly at all with Explorer. I won't
bad mouth Explorer here and now because I'm going to civilized. I may
have to end up brightening the footnotes color wise in the text, then
listing them at the bottom of the page with their appropriate links. And
of course the alt tags. I'd like to create the Acrobat Reader files for
the book too but as yet I have no idea how to go about it. And as far as
I know I'll have to shell out some money for the program to create those
files. And I don't have the rich friends for backers that Bucky had,
Micheal.



Trevor if any pages were ever built bass ackward. I'll be the first one
to admit ..  These be it.



Believe it or not in the jewelry trade I'm called a perfectionists by
some very accomplished master craftsmen, who I hold in great regard
because I consider them the perfectionists. A good friend of mine said I
was a purist more than a perfectionist. Maybe that's why I'm drawn over
and over again to synergetics? Diamond with it's perfect crystal lattice
is incredibly intriguing to me.

Thank you.

Mark Somers.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 03:55:18 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Tch
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Brian, I'm relieved I spelt Tch right.

Spaceship earth, sorry guy it's too late for all that acknowledgment
stuff. (Just kidding) Thanks.

Doing original stuff like Kirby, Russell, Rick or Karl's or even Jong's
........ I myself wouldn't know where to begin. That's why I jumped on
doing something like publishing someone else's work.

Good luck, Spaceship Earth. My advice to you is do what you see needs
done. That's what I did, it helps to have a sense of humor, and
sometimes, a nasty disposition don't hurt either. :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:34:49 -0400
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From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Honolulu Dome to be Demolished!
In-Reply-To:  <000701bde059$ec5beb00$c5affea9@oemcomputer>
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On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Joe S Moore wrote:

> http://www.starbulletin.com/97/01/30/business/story2.html

This is sad news. Construction began in April -- chances are, the dome's
already gone.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:46:07 -0400
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From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Fuller in the Media
Comments: To: Kirby Urner <urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com
In-Reply-To:  <35fee8d2.105563682@alumni.princeton.edu>
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On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Kirby Urner wrote:

> Any read on when WIRED might do some hardcopy re Fuller's inroads
> among digerati Mr. Stutz?

Fuller deserves to be on the cover, nothing less. Ideally, it would be a
10-20k word piece (like that huge "hacker tourist" piece last year) giving a
condensed tour of it all for the newbies (I can't tell you how many people
my age have never even _heard_ of Fuller) as well as covering new, related
work -- so the dream would be to accomplish something like a _BuckyWorks
II_. If/when this could or would happen I can't yet say.

There are other publications who could give more ink to Fuller and
Synergetics, as well.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:40:03 -0800
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From:         Bruce Ward <bward@METRO.NET>
Organization: chh yeh right…
Subject:      Re: BOYCOTT !!
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Yah!  Workers of the World, Fan Out!


Kirby Urner wrote:
>
> wizard@roundtable.net (The Wizard) wrote:
>
> >There are ways for All Americans to fight back, It's called a Boycott. This is
> >how to implement it.
> >
>
> Whatever happened to 'workers of the world unite'?  I feel a bond of
> solidarity with my counterparts in similar factories around the world
> and would like exchange programs that swap me around with counterparts
> in jobs for which I already have the necessary skills, so I can have
> a chance to experience Thailand, Singapore and Budapest first hand
> (to name a few destinations).
>
> My living conditions should be adequate in all these contexts.  I have
> no particular interest in what passport a co-worker holds -- one world,
> one enterprise is how management thinks, and fostering divisiveness in
> the rank and file is just a management tactic to keep workers fighting
> with each other rather than organizing across national boundaries (the
> way management has already done).
>
> Kirby
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
> 4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
> ---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:55:01 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
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From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Taking Stock (advertorial)
In-Reply-To:  <199809150449.VAA11828@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:49:49 -0700, you wrote:

> as for Kirby's "Voice of Princeton" editorial,
> which he edited, supposedly, it is rather weird,
> to have an attack on the Presidency,
> from someone who lays-claim to "USA-OS", and
> who voteth not.

I vote (sometimes), and my web-published c.v. shows I worked
for a voter registration outfit aimed at encouraging even
more people to vote.

>    "obscure beginnings" is a code for elitist snobbery,
> I believe; eh?
>

Yes, we all have obscure beginnings -- but the editorial
was comparing with the Kennedys and so an elitist viewpoint
-- which despises Clintons on mostly classist grounds --
needed to be addressed (and called into question).

As for the rest of your analysis (additional posting),
I consider it cram-packed with irrelevant detail, more
of your ESL (empty show of learning) practice (like,
speaking of elitist snobbery...).

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:48:48 -0500
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From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      The Greatest Show on Spaceship Earth
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The Save the World Circus:
The Greatest Show on Spaceship Earth

Is humanities unused potential so great that a bunch of
clowns can save the world? It's increasingly obvious
that the political circus is run by a bunch of bungling
fools. Their tent keeps falling down and catching on fire.
Their claim to fame is their amazing ability to lure
the public into one con-game and freak show after
another on the midway. We can continue backing into
the future, stumbling over ourselves like a clown, or we
can take a little pie in the face as we turn around and
face the future.

Humanity is walking a tightrope without a net, teetering
on the edge of oblivion. Humanity could fall with the
very next step, with the whole world watching sitting
on the edge of their seats. Or, we may prove that not
only can we walk a tightrope, we can jump rope on a
tightrope, we can ride a unicycle on a tightrope -- we
can even balance an ever growing pyramid of people on
our shoulders while walking on a tightrope. It's a race
between utopia and oblivion.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:04:14 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Power
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Joe S. Moore, thanks for the link about that Uninterrupted power system.

 http://www.amcity.com/milwaukee/stories/062998/story8.html

>From what I read it looks as though that instead of a battery for backup
they could and should integrate a fuel cell into the system and generate
power too. And the reason I emphasize should is that for all fuel cell
systems one needs good power regulating sub systems and it seems they've
got that already.

Now some politics of electrical power:

The single largest supplier in Montana has decided to get out of the
power business. Consequently we've been experiencing intermediate power
outages here, some that have been crashing my computer. Twice already
tonight, so that as I type this I'm aware this message could get
deleted. This same Power company last spring pushed through legislation
making it illegal for the citizens here to buy power from any other
suppliers for the next four years. The horse crap they told the citizens
here was that it was in their, the citizens, own interest that they not
be allowed to purchase power outside of the state because the people
outside the state were carpetbaggers who would rip them off, if they
bought their electrical power. And of course the people here believed
the shit. Since I hate chopping wood it looks like a fuel cell or solar
cells maybe in my future. hahahaha. I live in the largest town of
Montana so I'm curious as to what is really going on now that the
conservatives created a free market for power nation wide and yet the
local powers that be, seem to be, at least here, pulling political
shenanigans trying to help their buddies, instead of promoting something
like solar power or fuel cell power, etc.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:16:08 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Happy "cold war" days are here again.
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Kirby, Brian.

With the new Russian Prime minister leaning towards Social Democratic
rule just as one has in Europe do you think that another cold war is
around the corner? Wouldn't that be akin with a having a cold war stance
with our own Europeon allies?  I realize that he's an old communist, and
he's supported by the communists in the duma but do you really think
that the American people would buy the retoric that the communists are
really trying to sneek in one of thier own? Hmmmmmmmmm I might have just
answered my own question.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:09:43 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      They Didn't Ask "How Much Does the Building Weigh"
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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   Linkname: AM NEWS ABUSE
        URL: http://www.amnewsabuse.com/
       Date: Wednesday, 16-Sep-98 15:00:06 GMT

Can't We Just Renumber The Floors?: - Owners Circus Circus admitted their
new 3,700-room 'Mandalay Bay' casino and hotel, under construction in Las
Vegas, is settling into the ground somewhat more than expected.

[Which brings to my mind a question.  Some people object to gambling.
Some people object to prisons.  Some people object to the military.  Some
of those same people are in favor of a housing industry such as Fuller
proposed.  Is there an obligation to prevent Fuller's research from being
applied in ways which he or we object to?]

--
  Trevor Blake box2321@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/
  Post Office Box 2321, Portland Oregon 97208-2321, United States
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:55:48 -0000
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From:         hal mc whinnie <halchaos2@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject:      drawing of the day sept 16 1998
Comments: To: sh123@umail.umd.edu

begin 666 DRAWING AND THOUGHT OF THE DAYsept16.htm
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M`@@Z- V\9CA:Q;^\IC5 K%=>U1(>]C8HHEIL%8GPA K&Z3;0Z:-RI7#B*P2O
M=CY%25;V!>N.9P'*=0(<J@\6P5E<=EIBEDMF%LDL\2[JH!83@"\BQ5[^Y:56
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..'/JW,FSI\^?. ,"`#L`
`
end
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:46:12 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      seconds t midnight and he wants a good ol'Cold One!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 12:46
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 what are you blabbering about?...  just like Sir Fart o'Goodsmell
 (on "Ghost to Ghost A.D."), you categorize according
 to "commie" McCarthyite criterium,
 when Chernomyrdin is, or was, a rabid proponent
 of the IMF "trade is freedom" slef-described-by-Sachs-of Hahvahd "therapy
 of shocks".  meanwhile,
 the folks in Congress are going literally insane,
 illegally attacking the President, and you peddle yo'butt
 on Hollywood Blvd. for *pennies* ... that was you, Dear;
 wasn't it?

 thus quoth:
  With the new Russian Prime minister leaning towards Social Democratic
  rule just as one has in Europe do you think that another cold war is
  around the corner? Wouldn't that be akin with a having a cold war stance
  with our own Europeon allies?  I realize that he's an old communist, and
  he's supported by the communists in the duma but do you really think
  that the American people would buy the retoric that the communists are
  really trying to sneek in one of thier own?

 --The End of History -- this time for real!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:04:05 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Power

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 13:04
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 wow, you really believe the hype about deregulation --
 like sir George's cynical collapse of the S&Ls (see the siglink) ??

 thus quoth:
  suppliers for the next four years. The horse crap they told the citizens
  here was that it was in their, the citizens, own interest that they not
  be allowed to purchase power outside of the state because the people
  outside the state were carpetbaggers who would rip them off, if they
  bought their electrical power.

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:10:12 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Happy "cold war" days are here again.
In-Reply-To:  <35FF4998.E6647444@wtp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:16:08 -0600, you wrote:


I think I made my own position clear in my editorial.

More specifically, I'm look forward to a close working relationship
among design scientists as 'Project Earthala' prototype communities
get going on both the Alaskan and Siberian side and engage in a lot
of exchanges of information and personnel.[1]

I don't understand Brian's position on most issues, but that's
my own damn fault I suppose, as I delete the majority of his posts
to Geodesic unread or after eyeballing them only briefly (my days
are action-packed these days and I have to be choosey -- such is
life sometimes).  If he says anything important, perhaps one of
his fans/interpreters will decrypt it and send a summary.

Kirby

[1] See http://members.xoom.com/Urner/afsc/earthala.html


>Kirby, Brian.
>
>With the new Russian Prime minister leaning towards Social Democratic
>rule just as one has in Europe do you think that another cold war is
>around the corner? Wouldn't that be akin with a having a cold war stance
>with our own Europeon allies?  I realize that he's an old communist, and
>he's supported by the communists in the duma but do you really think
>that the American people would buy the retoric that the communists are
>really trying to sneek in one of thier own? Hmmmmmmmmm I might have just
>answered my own question.

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:18:22 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Taking Stock (advertorial)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 13:18
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 sorry, Kirby, for mistaking you for a total, political nincompoop, BUT,
 if you let the "Republicans" and "New Democrats" treasonously destroy
 the Presidency, as opposed to Clinton per se,
 you are "running" against "USA OS".
    as for the Kennedys, they were not Old Money, thus
 your "class analysis" is completely bogus.  yes,
 Joe was a moonshiner and the Ambassador to Great Britain,
 which may be how it was that John new what to do, as a republican
 (see the book, _Battling Wall Street_ for the actual programs of JFK).
 I will agree, though, insofar as Clinton has bucked the "special relation-
 ship", which is considerably more than is popularized, that
 the "elite" (LAWCAP, *fondi*, oligarchy, what ever) hate him 9and
 for a rundown on the elite-that-he-knows, see the book
 of his professor at Gerogetown, Carroll Quiggley,
 _Tragedy and Hope_ and so on.  better yet,
 just leap to the siglink).

 thus quoth:
  Yes, we all have obscure beginnings -- but the editorial
  was comparing with the Kennedys and so an elitist viewpoint
  -- which despises Clintons on mostly classist grounds --

 as for your "no comment", yes;
 that which we cannot speak to, we must pass over in silence.

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:43:27 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      A "Cold One"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Brian, most of my blabbering was cynical blabbering.

Insanity is a prerequisite to being in congress. I don't take those
idiots terribly seriously in the first place. As Fuller pointed out once
you could put all the politicians on a spaceship circling the sun and
their wouldn't be much impact on the planets citizenry but take all the
machines we have and dump them in a pile in the ocean and you'd have
about 2 billion or so dead people in about six months to a year.

My point being that now that maybe the Russians are going to get their
production shit together under a policy that will in all likely hood
include the nationalization of the machinery of production, will the
powers that be in the west see the Russians up coming economic success
as a threat and redeclare the cold war? The cold war in the first place
was one of economics not ideology.

And thanks for the cold one, with this global warming it'll hit the spot
I'm sure.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:30:47 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      give him a Cold One!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 13:30
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 re *Bucky's* machine-tool principle:

 thus quoth:

                 "We're going to have to also revive Russia. Now, what has bee
                 done to Russia, is a crime against humanity, particularly sin
                 1989. Everything that was done in the name of reform in
                 Russia, was wrong, criminally wrong, if not just criminally
                 stupid, as some of those proposals that have been made from
                 the United States.

                 "Russia's potential lies, not in its raw materials, or becomi
                 materials exporter. That was crazy, that was stupid. It has t
                 stop. Russia's potential, like that of any industrialized nat
                 the effective utilization of its most skilled section of its
                 labor force. This includes farming, of course, good farming.
                 includes good industry, good manufacturing, good infrastructu
                 all those things. But especially, a modern industrial nation
                 or falls on the quality of both its agricultural progress,
                 technological progress in agriculture, and, in the same sense
                 in its machine tool design sector, the most advanced,
                 science-driven sector of making machine tools that make
                 machine tools.e

 source:
 http://www.larouchepub.com/lar_speech_980906.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:36:05 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fuller in the Media
Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Comments: cc: synergetics-l@TELEPORT.COM
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.96.980915084026.417F-100000@shell.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:46:07 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

>There are other publications who could give more ink to Fuller and
>Synergetics, as well.
>
>

Indeed.  That large page "newspaper sized" Architecture New York
publication did a whole issue entitled "Forget Fuller?" (answer:
no way -- he's still our beacon), #17, first brought to my
attention by Ed Applewhite upon his return from Berlin, where
he'd first spotted it (he called wondering if I'd had anything
to do with it -- a perfectly reasonable question, given the
content of some of the articles).

I'd consider ANY #17 a "must read" for those not wishing to repeat
what's already been said re the relevance of the guy's architectronics
(trendy mags don't want to get caught writing a lot of "been there
done that" rehash, which comes off as second-hand BS when recycled
-- one of the main criticisms of Lloyd Seiden's "tribute" to Bucky,
which Ed trashed in a book review for 'TrimTab'[1]).

I gave my only copy of ANY #17 (sent by Ed) to Gerald de Jong when
we met up in Santa Cruz this April for Bonnie's big shindig.
bfi.org might still have the name/address of the company, for
those wanting a copy.

Kirby

[1] Buckminster Fuller's Universe; An Appreciation, by Lloyd
Steven Sieden -- I forget which issue of 'TrimTab' contains
Ed's review. Baldwin's 'Bucky Works' clearly did not share
this problem (of being second-hand and derivative), nor did
ANY #17.  I fully appreciate if WIRED editors are don't want
to regurgitate the same tired stuff re Fuller and design
science we've mostly all of us read over and over by this
time. I project some of the best new writing on synergetics
will cite Fuller only sparingly, without plagiarizing the rest
-- a sign that we've got a new self-discipline here, not a
one-time anomoly with no transmit potential (Fuller's worst
nightmare: synergetics as just another private language with
no future life in other skulls).

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:37:39 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      =geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 13:37
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us


                 "China does not have that kind of capability. It has some mac
                 tool sector, it has some science. No country in South Asia, o
                 Southeast Asia, has that kind of capability. No country in Af
                 even approaches that kind of capability. Argentina used to be
                 leading country of that sort, a machine tool country. That wa
                 destroyed successfully, since the end of World War I. Brazil
                 potential, but that's being destroyed. Mexico could have had
                 potential, but that was prevented in the 1970s, and then, fro
                 1982 on. Kissinger and Brzezinski were key factors in that
                 problem.

 --ibid
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:39:38 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      give *dude* a Cold One

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 13:39
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 "Now, Russia had such a capability in the Soviet Union. This was
                 called the military-scientific-industrial complex of the form
                 Union, which has been now largely wrecked. But elements of
                 these institutions, as typified by the Russian space program,
                 exist. In bad repair, but they exist. The people exist. Russi
                 skilled scientists and related technicians still exist.

                 "If we can mobilize Russia for itself, to rebuild itself not
                 of mess that Viktor Chernomyrdin and company have built, but
                 economy kind of basis, to get its people back to work, to reb
                 and reactivate its machine tool design potentiality--which wa
                 formerly located in the military-scientific-industrial comple
                 Russia can become a major contributor, especially in parts of
                 Asia--East Asia, China, South Asia, as in India; Southeast As
                 and into, also, Africa--can provide a massive flow, a growing
                 export of machine tool design capability, working in partners
                 with the same kind of effort from the United States, from cou
                 in Europe, such as Germany, and from Japan, if we can get Jap
                 back on the ball, so to speak.

                 "So, the President of the United States must bring this kind
                 leadership to nations, that is, the nations I mentioned are n
                 only ones, but these are the core nations, around which other
                 nations can group themselves for the kind of undertaking whic
                 required, for a global economic and moral reconstruction of t
                 planet."

                 "For that, we require leadership. We can not simply say 'Supp
                 Clinton.' Well, Clinton often does the wrong thing. He's not
                 guy. I don't know about some of the things he does or does no
                 do, or is alleged to do. But I know that he often falls short
                 requirements of leadership. But we've elected him as Presiden
                 And as President of the United States, he must, as President,
                 the person who takes the responsibility for the initiatives w
                 required to save this planet. Not all of the initiatives, but
                 play a key role, to permit the other parts of the planet to f
                 China, East, Southeast Asia, Europe, and Russia, and so forth
                 must do that.

                 "We must provide him leadership, so that he can provide
                 leadership.

 --ibid

 --The End of History -- is "up" to you!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:04:14 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Scientific American
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Scientific American, covers science that includes discoveries and such
of synergetics.


I have to agree, It's not easy deciphiring Brian
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:01:32 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      education intimation

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 14:01
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 re the book, _Failure to Connect_, whose author I heard
 on "Talk of the City" (KPCC-FM, Pasadena), and
 Bucky's "educatin'autmomatons":

 thus quoth:
 "For example, let's take the case of Germany. Under Willy Brandt,
                 who was owned by many people--that is, many sponsors,
                 including John McCloy, and also various other governments, no
                 with all of whom John J. McCloy would have agreed--Brandt
                 introduced, under his sponsorship, an educational reform bill
                 Germany. The result of this educational reform bill, called t
                 Brandt Reforms, has been to take a German population, which
                 was of a very high quality because of its previous
                 Classical-humanist education system, and taken from the same
                 families, people of the same backgrounds, and has made them
                 almost today, non-functional.

                 "The level of literacy, the level of developed intelligence o
                 typical German today, from the generations which were
                 graduated from secondary schools after the 1970s, is much
                 lower, qualitatively lower, than the populations from the sam
                 families of the same general backgrounds, prior to 1970 and
                 1972. It's visible, in many ways.

                 "Therefore, we can define a program--we have defined a
                 program--for reconstructing the world economy. The program wi
                 work fine. Our big problem, is two. Number one, to get leader
                 such as Clinton to do the things they must do: to provide the
                 leadership they must have, to provide for them in turn to pla
                 leadership role which they must play.


 source: http://www.larouchepub.com/lar_speech_980906.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:06:11 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      a Cold One for Algernon?

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 14:06
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us


                 "A similar thing happened to many of us, some 50-odd years ag
                 We went to war. Now, I was a little non-com, lowest level, in
                 war. And I was involved in the training command for a while,
                 before going overseas. And we brought in each batch from the
                 streets, from the buses and the railroads, we brought in peop
                 from every nook and cranny of U.S. society, virtually. We put
                 them together in training platoons in the training centers. A
                 cleaned them up, we educated them, we made them functional.

                 "The first step of this was, of course, in the CCC. The first
                 reserves we had for mobilizing divisions for World War II, ca
                 out of the Civilian Conservation Corps, which were turned int
                 military force, essentially, and were a key part of our milit
                 mobilization.

                 "So, our problem was, coming out of the 1920s and the 1930s
                 Depression, was to take a shattered, demoralized population,
                 shattered by the effects of the Flapper Era, by the effects o
                 Depression, to mobilize them, to re-educate them, to motivate
                 them, to change their attitudes, to make them more optimistic
                 create a fighting force to rebuild the world economy, especia
                 U.S. economy, and to deploy this force internationally.

                 "We did it. The big challenge for us today, is to not only ch
                 the mind of the President and people around him, to bring the
                 to a higher level of thinking and discipline, and commitment,
                 also to think of our general citizenry, who are demoralized,
                 have lost the mental skills for making decisions which their
                 had, or maybe they had 30 years ago. To remoralize them, to
                 encourage them, to make them aware of what the problems are
                 that they're going to face in their attempt to perform within
                 global reconstruction.

                 "That's our job. That's the job of leadership. We must not si
                 go out and be practical people and say, 'Okay,'--like a wise
                 guy--'Look, fella, I'm telling you what you've got to do,' eh
                 walk away as if somehow, you've solved the problem by giving
                 that instruction. That is not going to work. You're going to
                 deal much more seriously, with your friends and neighbors, an
                 people you meet otherwise, to realize they need something els
                 They don't need to be merely kicked and told what to do, or b
                 given suggestions, and then you walk away, and see if they ca
                 them out.

                 "You've got to recognize, that we're going to give people
                 instructions, which, at the present moment, they are
                 psychological incapable, intellectually and culturally, of
                 carrying out. Just as we took people off the streets, and dra
                 them into World War II, and turned the disheveled and confuse
                 draftees into an effective military force, we're going to hav
                 remoralize our people. We're going to have to make them aware
                 of what the higher level of thinking is. We've got to have th
                 become less mediocre, more moral, more
                 optimistic--eh?--more self-respecting.



 --ibid

 --Read His Lips, Reading His Biography!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:21:20 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      A "Cold One"
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I sure hope Spaceship earth is wrong and we don't have to fail miserably
to succeed, I. E. have a nuclear war which by the way is what gets the
Military industrial complexes moving, in a cold war.

Yes I can see, Trevor how the principles of synergetics could be used as
weapons, for example Russel Chu's work might inspire some chemical
weapons guys with a different perspective of how to manage molecules
more efficiently. Or molecular filters for fuell cells as tank power
plants.


Fuller sold Air deliverable shelters to the military.

And no...  there is no way that I can see to stop the military
industrial complexes around the world from using what they might of the
stuff developed from synergetics.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:09:44 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Scientific American

MESSAGE from ="List 16-SEP-1998 13:56
 Scientific American, covers science that includes discoveries and such
 of synergetics.


 I have to agree, It's not easy deciphiring Brian
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 14:09
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 it has not "covered" Synergetics;
 the recent article on tensegrity was piss-poor, two.
    now, *21st C.Science and Technology*, ne *Fusion*, hasn't either,
 but it's a *far* more interesting "general science" publication,
 complete with its own inventions.  (call 800/453-4108 .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:30:43 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      station identification

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-SEP-1998 14:30
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 note:

 "Sir George", Knighted by the QE2 into the Order of the Bath,
 or what ever, is the same as America's Favorite Undead President.

 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:46:06 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      GISP2 DOME
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Greenland Ice Sheet Project dome:

http://arcss.colorado.edu/arcssed/n2arctic/greenlnd/grldfrm.htm

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:25:09 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      George "of the political Jungle"
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I don't remeber George being knighted, Brian. Casper (The unfriendly
ghost)  Weinberg was knighted in place of any higher officials for the
really great job he did of lavashing enourmous amounts of American tax
payers money on the likes of Stars Wars and really kewl desert garb to
go with the off the books 200 billion dollar Saudia Arabia based nuclear
hardened military bases .... and other stuff.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:02:25 -0500
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From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
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Subject:      President Fuller
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When asked what he would do if he were the president of the United States,
Fuller stated that he would resign the position immediately. He said that he
had no use for it. If he had been asked what to do with the presidency, he
would have probably said eliminate it entirely.

Buckminster Fuller envisioned a true democracy where the people voted to
decide the issues, learned from their mistakes, and corrected them through
their vote. Not this false representative democracy, where the people vote for
who will represent and make decisions for us, and who then go and represent
the big money interest. This is why so few people vote.

At the same time, any government of the world was welcome to use any artifact
or idea of his. Buckminster Fuller was a consultant to many foreign
governments and world leaders. Much of his advanced work was done for the US
military. He was Head Engineer for the US Department of Economic Warfare
during World War II. Buckminster Fuller cultivated a lot of friends and
received a lot of recognition from people in the government and military,
beginning with his stint in the Navy, where his engineering prowess was well
noticed. Ed Applewhite, Fuller's collaborator on Synergetics, worked for the
CIA for many years, and held a top administrative position in that agency. If
not for his many friends in government and the military, he probably would
have never received the US Medal of Freedom. He said that the government
didn't come to him for assistance until they had first spent a lot of money
without coming up with any worthwhile solutions to the problem. The Pentagon
declared the domes he designed for them, the first major advance in mobile
military structures in 3,000 years. And don't forget about the radomes he
designed for the nuclear Defense Early Warning system.

Fuller said that advanced technology, from mathematics to light bulbs, etc.,
was always first adopted and advanced by the military and later filters down
into domestic use, and in the process providing ever more life support for
ever more humans. This process aided the survival and advancement of society.
He called this doing all the right things for all the wrong reasons, and
believed that one day a crisis would force humans to mobilize our resources to
do all the right things for all the right reasons.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:21:48 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Critical threshold.
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Spaceship Earth, what you stated in your last message I find to be very
true in that the various military industrial complexes push forward
technological development. But what bothers me is from your one post you
seemed to indicate that the planet would need a global failure before
it'll get around to being a global success. I equate global failure as
in involving global war.

Now for another point: Technological development leads to, doing more
with less in that context we are slowly evolving weather on a war
footing or not. In other words we (humans) will continue to do more with
less as our technologies evolve closer to mother natures
technologies.

So where's the critical threshold? The super power's did not give up
their nuclear weapons and the relative few (sic) can be easily
retargeted in a matter of minutes and has I pointed out earlier the cold
war was declared on the Soviets threat to western economic success, and
not on some silly ideology. Therefor if the Russians start getting their
economic act together and the conservatives in the west have a chance to
say. Uh .. uh ... the evil empire is up to it's old tricks again, and
the conservatives can find a way to convince the public to believe that,
then it's back to the old cold war crap again. And this time around we
may not be so lucky.

When and where do we, and I don't mean the extraordinarily few people
that read these messages, change our minds and work consciously to do
the right things for the right reason?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:55:37 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: President Fuller
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On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:02:25 -0500, you wrote:

>Buckminster Fuller envisioned a true democracy where the people voted to
>decide the issues, learned from their mistakes, and corrected them through
>their vote. Not this false representative democracy, where the people vote for
>who will represent and make decisions for us, and who then go and represent
>the big money interest. This is why so few people vote.
>

I think it's a misrepresentation even of the present USA system to suggest
that participation in the process is limited to voting.  Those who make
headway using the political machinery participate with a lot more
commitment (and a lot more leverage) than their "one person one vote"
privilege allows them.

That being said, I agree the Fuller forecast an electronified world
wherein a lot more immediate polling and "steering by the numbers" would
be feasible -- a closing of feedback loops in real time in such a way
as to give the average individual more chances to operate the controls.

>Fuller said that advanced technology, from mathematics to light bulbs, etc.,
>was always first adopted and advanced by the military and later filters down
>into domestic use, and in the process providing ever more life support for
>ever more humans.

There is some historical validity to this view, but the part about going
from Class II to Class I evolution, switching from "fear" to "longing"
as a primary motivator, is about giving the military some respite from
always having to stare death in the face on the front lines of some
impending doom.  As participants in a democracy, we need to be about
steering in such a way that our military isn't abused as a cost of
others giving in to unfettered greed, and/or ignorant reflex-conditioning.

>This process aided the survival and advancement of society.
>He called this doing all the right things for all the wrong reasons, and
>believed that one day a crisis would force humans to mobilize our resources to
>do all the right things for all the right reasons.

Yes, that's what he believed -- and not just him.  Einstein has that
famous quote about needing to think at a different level if we're
going to solve the problems created at the old level.  I think he
was on target with that remark.

Don't forget that Fuller's network extended globally, including into
the UN.  The design science revolution was never conceived by him
as some exclusive USA thing.  The Balinese chiefs have sway in this
world, even if the TV pundits don't get it that they do.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
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4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:58:52 GMT
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Subject:      Re: Critical threshold.
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On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:21:48 -0600, you wrote:

>When and where do we, and I don't mean the extraordinarily few people
>that read these messages, change our minds and work consciously to do
>the right things for the right reason?

I'd say a lot of people, including many with leverage, in positions
to make a difference, are already consciously working to do the
right things for the right reasons.  I don't see the need for
hand-wringing, wondering if the design science revolution will
ever get off the ground.  As I wrote to Mr. Stutz many moons ago,
my line is the design science decade (roughly 1985-1995) occured
on schedule, but involved a lot more behind-the-scenes maneuvering
than maybe some people expected -- but now we're in a position to
take the wrappers off and start getting more public about both
our recent past and our near future.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:16:33 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Critical threshold.
Comments: To: Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
In-Reply-To:  <36047a48.273899230@alumni.princeton.edu>
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On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Kirby Urner wrote:
>
> >When and where do we, and I don't mean the extraordinarily few people
> >that read these messages, change our minds and work consciously to do
> >the right things for the right reason?
>
> I'd say a lot of people, including many with leverage, in positions
> to make a difference, are already consciously working to do the
> right things for the right reasons.

I would add that the trimtab operators of the present and future will be
'artists' (more specifically, 'musicians') in the way that Malthus and
Marx and Darwin and Owen and Freud were 'authors.' For extended quotes on
the subject, see...

        http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/goms04.html

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:32:35 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
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From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: President Fuller
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.02A.9809162102200.17188-100000@user2.teleport.com>
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On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:09:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>As the decades went by, some (Walford and Benjamin) let the 'prescriptive'
>side of the theory wither and built up the 'descriptive' side.  I'm mostly
>in their camp (although Design Science suggests some trimtabbing is
>possible).  Most other living old-school s.i. theorists are still in the
>prescriptive camp.  Walsby, who started it all, abandoned the theory when
>it failed to take hold on a global scale on his schedule.
>
>Etc.
>
>-T.
>

Interesting stuff.

But seems we humans are existentially thrown into circumstances
where we have inescapable responsibility for stuff i.e. to "not
steer" is to make a choice, as much as "to steer" -- we're
responsible either way, for actions or inactions as the case
may be.

I think most ideologies give the individual a sense of having
a place in some system with steering possibilities, but in point
of fact many humans are unclear on the concept of "precession"
(shifting to a Fuller-style analysis) and so tackle problems in
ways that appear "straightforward" or "head on", but which appear
awkward in retrospect, if trimtabbing is really what we're about.

Partly why I think the design science revolution (1985-1995) was
not headline news on CNN is because trimtabbing isn't easily
captured in 20 second stories about isolated events.

Check 'precession' in 'Critical Path' for more on this -- I'd
be curious as to where on the SI spectrum to put 'trimtabbing'
as an MO.

Kirby

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Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:36:15 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Critical threshold.
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.4.02A.9809162110360.17188-100000@user2.teleport.com>
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On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:16:33 -0700, you wrote:

>I would add that the trimtab operators of the present and future will be
>'artists' (more specifically, 'musicians') in the way that Malthus and
                                ^^^^^^^^^

Cite centrality of music in the Gaviotas community (high plains Colombia).
Thinking Earthala should have outdoor speaker system, usable even in
inclement weather (of course Fly's Eyes are great for multimedia, and
keep their operators cozy even in Siberian storms).

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
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4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:13:01 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
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From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      Re: Critical threshold.
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"Clear span geodesic ethnic cleansing camp." Geodesic domes
don't kill, people do.

The posting, 'From complete failure to complete success for all humanity' was
referring strictly to personal failure, and not global failure.

After the break up of the Soviet Union, there was  some inspiring progress
made in
disarmament, though this has been reversed some with the call by Republicans
for rebuilding the military. Rearmament is not supported by the majority of
Americans, but that never stopped the powers that be from making a fast buck
in the killing industry. In it's condition, Russia is certainly a danger,
though many experts say it is too weak to be a threat, but it is also an
opportunity (as in every adversity offers an opportunity). They need a Design
Science Revolution bad, as does the whole the world. Brian Hutchings recent
comments about Russia having the potential of becoming an exporter of machine
tool production and an Alaska-Siberia based Earthala are relevant in this
respect.  For some time now I've thought about the potential of a US-Russia
cooperative based project of this nature, based in Central Texas. I'll
introduce that proposal in the near future. A greater security threat than
Russia appears to be nuclear, biological, and chemical terrorism. Some of the
hungry Russian scientist that could be applying their expertise to the Design
Science Revolution may already be selling their expertise to terrorist nations
and organizations.

'So where's the critical threshold?' Fuller's answer, unfortunately, is that
the critical threshold is on the brink of oblivion. Fuller said that it would
be touch and go to the very end. He said that it may already be too late.

As Fuller saw, and as anyone can see, humanity tends to wait until the last
minute to act, even in the face of a growing crisis. The year 2000 computer
bug is a good current example.

Buckminster Fuller related his personal crisis to global crisis in the
following passage from page 252 in Critical Path.

'The emergency-political adjustment will
go on until, in the stress of ever-greater
emergency, society spontaneously adopts
all of our critical path's artifacts. The great
emergencies may finally force political society
to "do the right things" for the right reasons. (I
found my way into so doing half a
century ago, as occasioned, however,
only by total crises in my own life -- why
should not others do so?) If political
society does decide to do the right
tasks for the right reasons, it will
probably find our critical-path artifacts
to be both cogently and specifically
essential.'

And two other interesting quotes from Critical Path.

'Evolutionary events.. have, during the last
half-century, gone critical -- bringing humanity to a
moment of crisis adequate in magnitude to springboard
humanity into oblivion or into a relatively utopian
future.' -- Buckminster Fuller. Critical Path.

'All the.. class-one evolutionary trending provides
powerful long-distance prognostication data. Keeping
track of the integrated ephemeralization and
acceleration trends and their socioeconomic resultants,
per each world human, made possible my 1938 Nine
Chains to the Moon and my 1950 magazine-published
prognostication that by 2000 A.D. all humanity either
would be enjoying a higher but generally unfamiliar
standard of living than any humans had ever known --
or would have altogether perished.' -- Buckminster
Fuller. Critical Path

Time to push the fast forward button and speed up the process of human
development to conform with our space age potentials, and pull humanity out of
the gravity of the black hole of chaos.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:00:19 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: re. Buckminster fuller site
Comments: To: sales@orbfactory.com
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Dear Paul,

Thanks for the feedback.  May I suggest that Fuller's "A" and "B" modules
would make great earrings. See:
http://www.servtech.com/~rwgray/synergetics/s09/figs/f1301.html

Sincerely,

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Orb Factory Sales [mailto:sales@orbfactory.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 12:49 PM
> To: joemoore@cruzio.com
> Subject: re. Buckminster fuller site
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> Great Site.  I certainly just learned a lot.  I noticed that you have
> several of my company's products listed (cuboctaflex, dodecaflex,
> icosaflex, Flexistar, Polygonzo, Quix, tetrastar, vectorsphere) and I
> thought I should give you some up to date info.  In fact, the tetrastar
> has been discontinued from our line.  All of the products that you have
> mentioned can be found at one of our sites, http://www.novadesigngroup.com
>
> If you need any additional information on our products or our company,
> please feel free to contact me at any time.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Higgins
>
> The Orb Factory
> 225 Herring Cove Rd. Halifax, NS Canada
> B3P 1L3
> Tel: 902-477-9570
> Fax: 902-477-7273
> email: sales@orbfactory.com
> http://www.orbfactory.com
> http://www.novadesigngroup.com
>
> Ps.  Thanks for all of the work that you have put into maintaining this
> site.
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:19:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Lloyd Steven Sieden
Comments: To: Kirby Urner <urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
In-Reply-To:  <36001cc2.249953226@alumni.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Kirby Urner wrote:

> [1] Buckminster Fuller's Universe; An Appreciation, by Lloyd
> Steven Sieden -- I forget which issue of 'TrimTab' contains
> Ed's review.

Oh yeah -- Sieden was the guy I was wondering about earlier, where on the
back cover of his book the bio says he pitches the ideas of synergetics to
corporations -- always wondered whatever happened with that. I read that
book of his, it was huge but yeah, it was all rehash of stuff written 10
years previous, not at all like Baldwin's...
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:55:45 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      FUEL CELL ARTICLE
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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http://www.popsci.com/content/hometech/news/980916.h.html


Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:57:35 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      Dymaxion Lunar Habitat
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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CAUPR: Publications in Architecture and Urban Planning,
University of Wisconsion
http://www.sarup.uwm.edu/CAUPR/publist.htm

DOMUS 1 AND DYMAXION:
TWO CONCEPT DESIGNS FOR LUNAR HABITATS (NEW)
Janis Huebner-Moths, David Endmann, and Gary T. Moore

Two concept designs for lunar habitats are explored and
developed in this monograph based on human
factors/environment-behavior considerations. Attention is
given to initial operating configuration design requirements,
different technological options, and 12 different habitat
concepts. Domus 1 is a pressurized self-supporting
 membrane structure (PSSMS) proposed by Chow and Lin.
Dymaxion is a dome structure based on the work of
Buckminster Fuller. The master plan, construction
sequencing, technical subsystems, and interior configuration
of both of these concepts are presented.

ISBN 0-938744-91-7
Pp. xiv + 77; plans, illustrations and maps
R95-1/ $15.00
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:12:53 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      Re: Lloyd Steven Sieden
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Re: Buckminster Fuller's Universe: An Appreciation, by Lloyd Steven Sieden
I liked the book. Good hash. Wanted a copy for a long time. Ordered a used
copy just last week. Only two copies were listed on three used book search
engines. Amazon list the book as available on back order in three to five weeks.

I also noticed that quite a few copies of the following (apparently large
format) book have become available since I last looked, for $10 to $18, if
anybody is interested I will provide source information. R. Buckminster
Fuller: Makers of contemporary architecture, by John McHale. New York, George
Braziller, 1962.
1st prtg. Cloth & Boards. Over 100 illustrations, plans, drawings & photographs.

I also noticed that more low cost copies of Synergetics (and Grunch of Giants) have
become available. I expect the used book market will become quite competitive
as more sellers and more books become listed.

I also found this interesting title which referred to Buckminster Fuller at
www.hamiltonbook.com (an good place to find low cost books.)
A CELEBRATION OF THE 80S: Portraits. By Nancy Rica Schiff
An inspiring meditation on old age, published in 1983, presents succinct portraits
of vibrant octogenarians as diverse as Ansel Adams, Molly Picon, Andres Segovia,
Eva LeGalliene, and R. Buckminster Fuller.
Paperbound
Published by Abrams
Well illustrated in color.
143 pages
Item # 292303
Pub at $17.50 Your Price $8.95

Who was it that coped that #139 signed edition of Tetrascroll for $14.00 that
I tried to order? Must have been Trevor. I'm not a book collector by a long
shot, but I couldn't pass that up.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:45:24 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      The Revolution Begins with the Punks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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The Global Energy GEG:
A Gillion Gigawatts of Punk Rock Energy!

Is humanities unused potential so great that a 'group'
of punks can save the world? Revolutions have always
been started by a small 'band' of rebels.

They're a real punk band. They can't sing, they can't
dance, and they can't play music. They're a bunch of
no-count, no-talent losers, with attitude -- and they just
crashed your party! Now they're out to take their
revolutionary brand of funk on a tour around the world.
So, what's the first step out for a punk rock group
named Energy that's out to tour the world? The
Global Energy GEG: A gillion gigawatts of punk rock
Energy!

We're taking Energy coast-to-coast.
We're taking Energy around the world.
We're plugging in everywhere.
We're building a Global Energy Grid.
We've got a GEG!
It's our first step out.

Energy is a group of multiethnic youth that grew up in
the slums, the barrios, and the ghettos. They form a
rock band to vent their frustrations, as an escape from
the poverty they grew up in. Through their music, they
think they can make a difference in their community. In
their naive idealism, they think their band can save the
world.

Buckminster Fuller knew that it'd be left up to the
naive, idealistic youth to lead the Design Science
Revolution, but he didn't know they'd be this naive!

The punk youth of today are the world leaders of
tomorrow. This could be a big problem -- or a great
opportunity. It's a race between utopia and oblivion.

Want to start a Revolution? Assistance is needed to set the Global Energy GEG
'jingle' to music and create a MIDI or QuickTime file that can be downloaded
and listened to. It's time to rock n' roll. No more waiting for GRUNCH. The
Revolution begins with the punks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:29:56 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      No such thing as waste.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In the early 70's I worked for a copper mine in southern Arizona. At the
time they were in the process of building what they called the smelter
of the future. Now a days they're called acid plants. I was laid off
when the new smelter went on line. After reading Bucky's book "Critical
Path" and taking some college level courses in chemistry it dawned on me
what had happened. First off the name given to the new smelter was very
misleading I looked up the patents and found that the "Smelter of the
Future" was R&D'd in 1936. The old way of smelting copper "Sulfide ore"
was to "roast" it. Pile it up in a furnace and burn it. That process is
still used today to smelt sulfur ores. The "roasting" produces Sulfur
dioxide and the people living around the smelters eventually sued the
smelter operators because of the acid rain it created locally. and not
so locally (They real built those smoke stacks high)  The mining
companies complained that they could never afford the scrubbers needed
on the smoke stacks to clean up the Sulfur dioxide emissions so the
federal government stepped in and gave the mining concerns the money to
install the scrubbers. I was called back to work after about 8 months
and told I'd have to work in the new acid plant as a laborer until my
old slot as a mechanic electrician opened up again. They tried to
cohourst me into giving up my old position as mechanic and when I
refused they gave me all the really nasty labor jobs. I learned a lot
about the acid plant by not being a specialist and asking the chemical
engineers questions as I chauffeured them around the plant. I learned
the prices of the acid for instance that was coming into the plant and
it's source. The source was the scrubbers sitting on top of the old
smoke stacks operating in other parts of the state that the federal
government paid for, in the process of saving the environment. The acid
plant electrowined (Smelted) the oxide copper ores that were stock piled
over many decades as tailings. To this day very few people understand
what went on. When I see a smoke stack I look at it from the stand point
of that the stuff coming out is perfectly good raw materials in the
wrong place. A few years ago a copper company decided to build a new
sulfide smelter across the border in Sonora Mexico. They didn't include
a scrubber. The astute governor of Sonora let them finish building their
plant but then wouldn't allow them to start operations until they built,
not only the scrubber, but the acid plant that utilized the Sulfuric
acid that the scrubbers produced to electrowin the Copper nitrate ores.
It was a smart move by that governor but right now the country of Mexico
can't even lay the biggest replacement of copper wire, "fiber optic
cable" fast enough for the new demands for telecommunications. Cellular
and satellite phones aren't products of individual prestige in Mexico,
they're a necessity.


Copper doesn't even have to be mined today, as exemplified above, there
is more than enough in above ground mines. Even in the mid seventies
they could have stopped mining the stuff, but at the time copper was
considered a cold war strategic metal, and the federal government was
even subsidizing some of the operations at the mine I was working at. I
also found out from a friend of mine working in the research labs of
"Andaconda Mining" that they were no longer doing any research and
development in Copper but were, as of about the mid eighties, doing R
and D in Titanium. I worked for a metals casting company as the in house
artist and found, believe it or not, the metal vendors that mined the
slush metals that we used to make our product insisting that their metal
was better because it was "virgin" from the ground. I looked at the
periodic table and couldn't find a category called "virgin" metals. We
immediately started using that "whorish" old used metal that their
competitors were selling, and selling cheaper.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:54:51 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Tutoring Survey
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Howdy --

The opinions of people on the Geodesic List are very valuable.  Would love
to hear from as many of you as possible on this.  The purpose of this survey
is to gather information for a new client.  Addresses of people who reply
will be deleted and not shared with anyone.  Please send the survey to my
private address, so the list is not clogged up with this.  Thanks.

1.  What is the most important item in which children need to be educated?


2.  What do you have the most trouble teaching children?


3.  Who can you rely on for education?


4.  What is a fair hourly rate for individual tutoring?


5.  What qualifications are most important in a tutor?


6.  (optional) How many children do you have, and what are their ages?


7.  (optional)  Are your children:
                in public school
                in private school
                homeschooled

Thank you very much for participating.

-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:09:11 +0200
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      Re: windows sort of world study software,
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.980820181231.6592A-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

i am sorry for responding   late to  the friend who replyed  to my
email.   it is expnseive to use    the net in englnad, but  i might
have find a sway to pay only 27 pounds a year, i have to chekd next
week.     i thought i will find a whole in the sysem - just like
milking you have to be genetin the beginning  with the cow.



-----------------



bturbiee engine rotate 10,000 times per minute- quite fast.


tagdi
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:58:34 +0200
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Edgar <edgarv@WORLDONLINE.NL>
Organization: World Online
Subject:      make profiles of a DIKE "smaller" !?

I have profiles of a dike, but the profiles have like 100 points in them.
I need only a profile of 20 points...(or less)
Does anyone know a way to get the (maximum of) 20 points of that profile?
So, I need maximum of 20 (or less) points that give the profile of a dike.

Anyone has a program to calculate that or someone knows an algoritme to
determeine this??

Post an answer to this newsgroup AND PLEASE mail me at
e.veldman@fugro-inpark.nl AND edgarv@worldonline.nl
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:06:41 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      REMOTE SENSING
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

OrbView-4; HIGH-RESOLUTION IMAGERY AND HYPERSPECTRAL DATA

http://www.orbimage.com/satellite/orbview4/orbview4.html

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:39:06 GMT
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From:         jabbar@MY-DEJANEWS.COM
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Subject:      Re: Tesla Symposium Report GEO

In article <199809092019.NAA17741@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
  Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> Just finished up with the 1998 Tesla Symposium, the first one held in
> Denver.  As usual, it was great.  We got a lot of enthusiastic feedback from
> attendees.  Unfortunately due to the Labor Day weekend scheduling i was
> unable to be at some sessions, and did not actually get to hear any entire
> presentations.  The timing also cut our attendance to some degree.  However,
> i did manage to have several enlightening conversations with a number of
> inventors and builders.

Thanks for the insight.

I saw a "Free Energy" video and it featured Paul Pantone's GEET system.  Do
you know what every became of it?  I would love to support his efforts by
purchasing his products if I knew more about them.  Can you point me in the
right direction?

Regards

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:56:13 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Tesla Symposium Report GEO
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Paul Pantone is alive & kicking with an expanding company in Utah.  The GEET
device is selling well through a network of distributors he has set up.
Don't have his number handy but you can get it through the Tesla Society,
719-475-0918.

At 12:39 AM 9/20/98 GMT, you wrote:
>In article <199809092019.NAA17741@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>  Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>> Just finished up with the 1998 Tesla Symposium, the first one held in
>> Denver.  As usual, it was great.  We got a lot of enthusiastic feedback from
>> attendees.  Unfortunately due to the Labor Day weekend scheduling i was
>> unable to be at some sessions, and did not actually get to hear any entire
>> presentations.  The timing also cut our attendance to some degree.  However,
>> i did manage to have several enlightening conversations with a number of
>> inventors and builders.
>
>Thanks for the insight.
>
>I saw a "Free Energy" video and it featured Paul Pantone's GEET system.  Do
>you know what every became of it?  I would love to support his efforts by
>purchasing his products if I knew more about them.  Can you point me in the
>right direction?
>
>Regards
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
>
-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:22:34 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: BUCKMINSTER FULLER - COSMOGRAPHY
Comments: To: KCOLBE@aol.com
In-Reply-To:  <9457711c.3604bffa@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear KCOLBE,

See http://www.bfi.org/shopping/purchasenew.htm for a photocopy of
'Cosmography'.

Also, for used copies of Bucky books see Interloc http://www.interloc.com/
and Advanced Book Exchange http://www.abebooks.com/ .

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: KCOLBE@aol.com [mailto:KCOLBE@aol.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 1998 1:43 AM
> Subject: BUCKMINSTER FULLER - COSMOGRAPHY
>
> I VISITED YOU FULLER VIRTUAL INSTITUTE AND WAS VERY IMPRESSED.  I HAD THE
> PLEASURE OF LISTENING TO MR. FULLER LECTURE ON FORM AT THE SCHOOL OF
> ARCHITECTURE IN SAN LUIS OBISPO BACK IN 1983.
>
> I NEED TO KNOW, A WHILE BACK THE BUCKMINSTER FULLER INSTITUTE
> OFFERED A BOOK
> "COSMOGRAPHY", BUT I WAITED QUITE SOME TIME TO ORDER IT AND WHEN
> I TRIED THE
> INSTITUTE WAS NO LONGER AT THE ADDRESS INDICATED.  DO YOU KNOW IF IT STILL
> EXISTS AND/OR WHERE I CAN PURCHASE THE BOOK.  ANY INFORMATION WOULD BE
> APPRECIATED.
>
> THANK YOU.
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:51:32 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      FLY BIG BIRD BUCKY PAGE
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~uh7t-wsz/buckye.html

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:57:51 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      BUCKY BOOK IN GERMAN
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

R.Buckminster Fuller BEDIENUNGSANLEITUNG FÜR DAS RAUMSCHIFF ERDE und andere
Schriften

http://www.txt.de/vdk/fuller.htm

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:44:45 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      THE FULLER PUNCH?!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anyone have any additional info on the "Fuller Punch"?

http://www.springfield.k12.il.us/schools/jefferson/Museum/BuckminsterFuller.
html

Joe S Moore
joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:47:34 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Emergency Shelter Parachute Domes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Has anyone ever implemented this idea?

http://www.dnaco.net/~michael/domes/parachute.html

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:32:36 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      SYNERGETICS, INC. (formerly Geodesics, Inc)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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"Our firm was started in 1954 on behalf of Buckminster Fuller as Geodesics,
Inc. to perform governmental work.  In 1955 we formed the company
SYNERGETICS, INC. to illustrate our commitment to the idea of synergy in
buildings, design, and people."

http://www.synergeticsinc.com/

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:52:48 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: BUCKMINSTER FULLER - COSMOGRAPHY
Comments: To: Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <000001bde4c3$a378cac0$28acfea9@oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, Joe S Moore wrote:
> See http://www.bfi.org/shopping/purchasenew.htm for a photocopy of
> 'Cosmography'.
>
> Also, for used copies of Bucky books see Interloc http://www.interloc.com/
> and Advanced Book Exchange http://www.abebooks.com/ .

I haven't switched / added addresses yet, but I am the proprietor of the
used & rare bookstore that the BFI linked to for out of print Bucky books.
See...

        http://www.jwhirler.com/

... for a rotating stock of out of print books by and about Buckminster
Fuller.  No Cosmology at present, but plenty of other nice titles and more
coming in as I find them.

- Trevor Blake
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 03:44:32 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

No More Hoping: Food for Everyone
Moving Agriculture Into the Space Age
And The Birth of a Truly Scientific Civilization

(Or, is humanities unused potential so great that
a farm boy or girl can save the world? Yea, but it's a
long row to hoe!)

Humanity still lives in the Dark Ages of poverty and
hunger caused by ignorance. A new agricultural
revolution is necessary to give birth to a truly
'Scientific Civilization.'
       Agriculture is the backbone of civilization. Without
agricultural development there can be no peace, no
freedom and no human development. Throughout
history, human progress has been directly linked to
developments in agriculture.
       History shows that civilizations rise and collapse
along with their agriculture and natural resource base.
Three agricultural revolutions have allowed humanity
to survive and prosper to the present day. The
domestication and cultivation of food crops 10,000
years ago created an agricultural revolution that gave
rise to the first ancient civilizations. Genetic breeding
and improved cultivation techniques created a second
agricultural revolution in the 1700s which gave rise to the
Industrial Revolution, which in turn industrialized agriculture.
The Green Revolution in genetic breeding in the 1970s
prevented a world-wide famine, but only by a small margin.
       Agriculture faces many formidable new challenges:
genetic erosion, resistant pests and diseases, water
shortages, soil erosion, urban expansion, increasingly
unpredictable weather, lack of new arable lands,
population growth, farmers displaced by war, and
more. These problems not only challenge agriculture
but are a challenge to civilization. Over the next 30
years of population growth we must get twice the yield
from every acre of land just to maintain current levels
of poverty and malnutrition.
       The times demand a new agricultural revolution.
It is now technologically and economically feasible to
launch a new revolution in agriculture that will banish
poverty and hunger to the Dark Ages of history and
give birth to a truly 'scientific civilization.' The next
agricultural revolution will make or break humanity. It's
a race between utopia and oblivion.

'Our future security now depends... on developing new,
more productive farming technologies.' -- Lester R.
Brown


                            Planting Trees:
       A Comprehensive Solution to World Problems
The regreening of the earth is reported by experts in
many fields to be the only cure for many world
problems and prevention of future global disasters.
Environmental experts, such as Lester R. Brown of the
World Watch Institute, report that it's necessary to
conduct a world wide tree planting effort similar in
intensity to a mobilization for war. Without such an
effort scientist claim that many environmental
problems of a catastrophic nature cannot be prevented
from occurring in the near future. Planting trees
produces surprising positive feedback effects
contributing to almost every major and minor local and
global problem. It's a major solution to major world
problems.

'Planting and growing increasing quantities of trees is
the scientific solution to Earth's environmental
dilemma.' -- Dr. Richard St Barb Baker

                The World Peace Garden
The synergetic forces of the Earth's biosphere, it's air
currents, ocean currents, solar, geologic, and biological
forces have converged on the equator, in the Central
Andean country of Ecuador, on the West Coast of
South America, to create a model biosphere of the
Earth, encompassing 28 of the earth's 30 basic
life-zones, from tropic to arctic, and desert to pluvial,
with altitudes ranging from sea-level to alpine, all
within a country about the size of the state of
Colorado. The climate, soils, and plant life are so
fragmented that a single farm may encompass wet and
dry, and mild and frigid climates, and several varieties
of soils and types of vegetation. Ecologist marvel and
are awed by the incredible diversity.
       The small country of Ecuador houses essentially
every climate type found on Earth and is widely
considered to have the highest diversity of plant
species found anywhere in the world. Ecuador is a
natural "climatron" adaptable to the culture of almost
any of the world's flora, yet there is no botanical
garden of major importance located in Ecuador.
       As a model biosphere of the Earth, and world
center of biological diversity, located on the equator,
at the geographic center of the planer, Ecuador is
ideally situated for a world-class botanical garden
representing the diversity of our planet, and an
international site of learning about life. The World
Peace Garden will be a place where cultures from every
region of the world can come together in an
international spirit of cooperation and ethnic pride to
build a Garden of the World, and a symbol of unity and
diversity.
       Due to the unique and very fragmented nature of
Ecuador's environment, the World Peace Garden may
be situated in a small valley, where, within the distance
of a few feet, the natural climate will range from tropic
to temperate, and wet to dry. The natural climate may
be manipulated and varied further utilizing the design
principles of microclimatology.
       The World Peace Garden proposes three highly
educational gardening layouts: a garden modeled on
the 35 floristic regions of the world; the 12 world
centers of diversity for our food and economic crops
(the Central Andes is one); and phylogenetic gardens,
which are family trees for plants, designed as
gardening beds, laid out in a way that lets you see the
relationship that exist between closely related kinds of
plants.

       The Peru - Ecuador Peace Sanctuary
The resolution to a long standing border dispute
between Ecuador and Peru in a sparsely populated, but
rich biological region of the Amazon Basin is the
establishment of this region as an International Peace
Sanctuary jointly administered by Ecuador, Peru and
neighboring countries. Border disputes similar to this
one lie simmering in many regions of the world. The
establishment of the Peru - Ecuador Peace Sanctuary
could set an example for the peaceful resolution of
border disputes around the globe.

                   Universal Peace Garden
The Earth is the gene bank of the universe, and we are
burning it to the ground. But through the mobilization
of a vast army of paradise builders, we will regreen the
Earth from the arctic to the desert and from the sea
shores to the mountain tops, and rebuild the Earth
greater than it ever could have been before upon the
foundation of a planet that we almost completely
destroyed. And from here -- proceeding on to the
planets spreading the miracle of life throughout the
universe.

It's A Race Between Utopia And Oblivion!
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:36:05 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         gb Earth <glynn@GLYNNBEBEE.ORG>
Subject:      Re: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
Comments: To: mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>History shows that civilizations rise and collapse
>along with their agriculture and natural resource base.

Or is it that advances in culture have created a climate for agricultural
progress?

And which did come first, the chicken or the egg?

glynn@glynnbebee.org
www.glynnbebee.org



>No More Hoping: Food for Everyone
>Moving Agriculture Into the Space Age
>And The Birth of a Truly Scientific Civilization
>
>(Or, is humanities unused potential so great that
>a farm boy or girl can save the world? Yea, but it's a
>long row to hoe!)
>
>Humanity still lives in the Dark Ages of poverty and
>hunger caused by ignorance. A new agricultural
>revolution is necessary to give birth to a truly
>'Scientific Civilization.'
>       Agriculture is the backbone of civilization. Without
>agricultural development there can be no peace, no
>freedom and no human development. Throughout
>history, human progress has been directly linked to
>developments in agriculture.
>       History shows that civilizations rise and collapse
>along with their agriculture and natural resource base.
>Three agricultural revolutions have allowed humanity
>to survive and prosper to the present day. The
>domestication and cultivation of food crops 10,000
>years ago created an agricultural revolution that gave
>rise to the first ancient civilizations. Genetic breeding
>and improved cultivation techniques created a second
>agricultural revolution in the 1700s which gave rise to the
>Industrial Revolution, which in turn industrialized agriculture.
>The Green Revolution in genetic breeding in the 1970s
>prevented a world-wide famine, but only by a small margin.
>       Agriculture faces many formidable new challenges:
>genetic erosion, resistant pests and diseases, water
>shortages, soil erosion, urban expansion, increasingly
>unpredictable weather, lack of new arable lands,
>population growth, farmers displaced by war, and
>more. These problems not only challenge agriculture
>but are a challenge to civilization. Over the next 30
>years of population growth we must get twice the yield
>from every acre of land just to maintain current levels
>of poverty and malnutrition.
>       The times demand a new agricultural revolution.
>It is now technologically and economically feasible to
>launch a new revolution in agriculture that will banish
>poverty and hunger to the Dark Ages of history and
>give birth to a truly 'scientific civilization.' The next
>agricultural revolution will make or break humanity. It's
>a race between utopia and oblivion.
>
>'Our future security now depends... on developing new,
>more productive farming technologies.' -- Lester R.
>Brown
>
>
>                            Planting Trees:
>       A Comprehensive Solution to World Problems
>The regreening of the earth is reported by experts in
>many fields to be the only cure for many world
>problems and prevention of future global disasters.
>Environmental experts, such as Lester R. Brown of the
>World Watch Institute, report that it's necessary to
>conduct a world wide tree planting effort similar in
>intensity to a mobilization for war. Without such an
>effort scientist claim that many environmental
>problems of a catastrophic nature cannot be prevented
>from occurring in the near future. Planting trees
>produces surprising positive feedback effects
>contributing to almost every major and minor local and
>global problem. It's a major solution to major world
>problems.
>
>'Planting and growing increasing quantities of trees is
>the scientific solution to Earth's environmental
>dilemma.' -- Dr. Richard St Barb Baker
>
>                The World Peace Garden
>The synergetic forces of the Earth's biosphere, it's air
>currents, ocean currents, solar, geologic, and biological
>forces have converged on the equator, in the Central
>Andean country of Ecuador, on the West Coast of
>South America, to create a model biosphere of the
>Earth, encompassing 28 of the earth's 30 basic
>life-zones, from tropic to arctic, and desert to pluvial,
>with altitudes ranging from sea-level to alpine, all
>within a country about the size of the state of
>Colorado. The climate, soils, and plant life are so
>fragmented that a single farm may encompass wet and
>dry, and mild and frigid climates, and several varieties
>of soils and types of vegetation. Ecologist marvel and
>are awed by the incredible diversity.
>       The small country of Ecuador houses essentially
>every climate type found on Earth and is widely
>considered to have the highest diversity of plant
>species found anywhere in the world. Ecuador is a
>natural "climatron" adaptable to the culture of almost
>any of the world's flora, yet there is no botanical
>garden of major importance located in Ecuador.
>       As a model biosphere of the Earth, and world
>center of biological diversity, located on the equator,
>at the geographic center of the planer, Ecuador is
>ideally situated for a world-class botanical garden
>representing the diversity of our planet, and an
>international site of learning about life. The World
>Peace Garden will be a place where cultures from every
>region of the world can come together in an
>international spirit of cooperation and ethnic pride to
>build a Garden of the World, and a symbol of unity and
>diversity.
>       Due to the unique and very fragmented nature of
>Ecuador's environment, the World Peace Garden may
>be situated in a small valley, where, within the distance
>of a few feet, the natural climate will range from tropic
>to temperate, and wet to dry. The natural climate may
>be manipulated and varied further utilizing the design
>principles of microclimatology.
>       The World Peace Garden proposes three highly
>educational gardening layouts: a garden modeled on
>the 35 floristic regions of the world; the 12 world
>centers of diversity for our food and economic crops
>(the Central Andes is one); and phylogenetic gardens,
>which are family trees for plants, designed as
>gardening beds, laid out in a way that lets you see the
>relationship that exist between closely related kinds of
>plants.
>
>       The Peru - Ecuador Peace Sanctuary
>The resolution to a long standing border dispute
>between Ecuador and Peru in a sparsely populated, but
>rich biological region of the Amazon Basin is the
>establishment of this region as an International Peace
>Sanctuary jointly administered by Ecuador, Peru and
>neighboring countries. Border disputes similar to this
>one lie simmering in many regions of the world. The
>establishment of the Peru - Ecuador Peace Sanctuary
>could set an example for the peaceful resolution of
>border disputes around the globe.
>
>                   Universal Peace Garden
>The Earth is the gene bank of the universe, and we are
>burning it to the ground. But through the mobilization
>of a vast army of paradise builders, we will regreen the
>Earth from the arctic to the desert and from the sea
>shores to the mountain tops, and rebuild the Earth
>greater than it ever could have been before upon the
>foundation of a planet that we almost completely
>destroyed. And from here -- proceeding on to the
>planets spreading the miracle of life throughout the
>universe.
>
>It's A Race Between Utopia And Oblivion!
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:12:23 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Rebecca <Becks@COQUI.NET>
Subject:      more information about geodesic domes
Comments: To: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I am an Engineering student and i would like to receive more information =
about Bucksminster Fuller and his works. My e-mail is =
beyond_image@hotmail.com
            thank you for your attention, hope to hear from you soon.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDE53F.F1CA28A0
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am an Engineering student and i would like to =
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NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:17:59 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      GEET out o'here!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      21-SEP-1998 11:17
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 so, wht is the principle of the dude's "free energy" device;
 Universe?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:20:14 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      THE FULLER PUNCH?!

MESSAGE from ="List 21-SEP-1998  9:49
 Anyone have any additional info on the "Fuller Punch"?

 http://www.springfield.k12.il.us/schools/jefferson/Museum/BuckminsterFuller.
 html

 Joe S Moore
 joemoore@cruzio.com
 Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
 http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      21-SEP-1998 11:20
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
 anyone got a 5-word dyscription of the Fuller punch --
 is it a metal-forming tool?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:49:35 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Returned mail: User unknown

MESSAGE from =MAILER-DAEMON@zoon.lafn.org 21-SEP-1998 12:45
 This is a MIME-encapsulated message

 --LAA05512.906402405/zoon.lafn.org

 The original message was received at Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:26:44 -0700 (PDT)
 from pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us [199.172.96.9]

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    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
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 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:29:43 -0700
 From: Brian Hutchings <r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
 Message-Id: <199809211829.LAA27904@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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 <<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      21-SEP-1998 11:29
                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

  thanks, Kathleen!

  thus quoth:
   For a biased law review article by Congressman Bob Barr, who sits on the Hou
  Judiciary Committee and also co-authored a book published last year
  [pre-Lewinsky] entitled "The Impeachment of William Jefferson Clinton," see
  http://www.house.gov/barr/trolp.html
   This makes me wonder: how can this person vote on the impeachment inquiry,
  given that it will affect his book sales?
   The House Judiciary Committee website is a Henry Hyde website only and is
  therefore of little use to anyone looking for both sides of the story.

   For a law school's bibliography of impeachment materials, see
  http://www.lsu.edu/guests/wwwlawl/biblio/impeach.htm

   For the Independent Counsel Act, see
  http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/ch40.html

   For Salon magazine, which contains numerous points of view and tidbits of
  information, see http://www.salonmag.com/

   Now all of you can be impeachment law scholars.

  --The Duke of Oil
  http://www.tarpley.net

 --LAA05512.906402405/zoon.lafn.org--
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      21-SEP-1998 12:49
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
   oops.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:51:07 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.princeton.edu
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      A warning shot...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Urner to politicians: a shot across your bow...

Dumping the Starr stuff in the public domain was the
politicians' revenge for everybody turning on to the
internet and leaving them out of the spotlight too
dang much.

So now the clowns have crashed our party, have stormed
the internet with a vengeance with their googoo porn,
starring El Presidente hisself no less!

Back in the limelight again, hallelujah and exultation!

So now whatcha gonna do for your next act guys? (most
of 'em are ya know -- guys I mean).  Because the ugly
truth is we're not just into looking at porn here, but
into getting the job done (yours too, if you won't do
it).

Either shape up and govern, or watch us continue to out-
flank and out-maneuver the lot of you from our dweeby
cubicles. We have top quality access, networks overseas,
plenty of corporate clients (both big and small) all
panting for profits, and storyboards the USA public will
really wanna buy.

If you want any credit at all for helping to make this a
brighter and more democratic tomorrow, you'd better get
those party whips a crackin'.  Or watch the limelight shift
away again, with you folks holding no more cards this time
(the war option won't work -- we've switched the phasers
and photon torpedos to engineering, given all the buffoons
on the bridge).

This porno-clown act will only get you so far, will only
make lasting fools of some of the people -- gets old pretty
fast.  Stay this course if you must, but at least don't
dupe yourselves into believing the rest of us are just
gonna wait around twiddling our thumbs for ya'll to recover
your composure.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:03:32 GMT
Reply-To:     AntonErg@worldnet.att.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         John <AntonErg@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Organization: Erg Inc.
Subject:      Re: A warning shot...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Good job :)  But why give them a warning shot?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:36:22 -0600
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      The ship of non-state.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kirby, your last message got me to thinking. Are there any virtual
voting web sites on the net? And if not I think that developing a
prototype site along those lines would be a good project. Security and
Privacy protocols and such would have to be worked out and maybe having
a test site running parallel with the set up being used now for the next
presidential election would yield some interesting results.

If anyone has any information concerning the existence of a site I've
just suggested please post it and or any other suggestions concerning
the design of such a site.

Thanks

Mark Somers.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:28:48 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      Re: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>>History shows that civilizations rise and collapse
>>along with their agriculture and natural resource base.

Much has been written about this, but I'm not able to take the time to post
a bibliography on the subject. It's widely held that about 10,000 years ago
(not long after the end of the last Ice Age) a number of cultures, on almost
every inhabited continent, almost simultaneously began domesticating and
cultivating food crops which allowed them to forego their nomadic foraging and
to settle into stable communities which fostered the development of the arts
and sciences. History also shows the collapse of many societies and
civilizations, all over the world, as a result of the collapse of their
agriculture and natural resource base. The Maya in Guatemala shows evidence of
this. I believe the
Anasazi in the Southwest USA also. And other cultures I cannot name. Perhaps
the most relevant to the concept of Spaceship Earth is Easter Island, which,
like the Earth itself, is limited in territory. The soil became eroded and
unproductive. They ran out of wood to make canoes for fishing and to use to
erect their famous statues. The island collapsed into civil warfare and even
cannibalism. When the island was explored by archeologist it was completely
littered with arrow and spear points.

>Or is it that advances in culture have created a climate for agricultural
>progress?

Agriculture is one of the many aspects of society and culture. If you'll study
social geography, you'll see that society is grounded in the environment.
There are strong feedback loops that enhance the development of culture and
agriculture. Agriculture enhanced the development of the sciences by allowing
people to settle into stable societies, freeing them from the time consuming
task of nomadic foraging, and the sciences thus developed enhanced the
development of agriculture. Developments in agriculture gave rise to the
Industrial Revolution by freeing people from farm work to work in the
industries, and the Industrial Revolution industrialized agriculture. These
trends continue today. The results of moving from farm labor to industry are
not always ideal, but have generally resulted in a higher income and higher
standard of living. But we've lost touch with nature and need to regain that
sense, and our farming and industries have wrecked havoc on nature.

>And which did come first, the chicken or the egg?

Some people think that food comes from the store. Which came first the food or
the store? We've lost our sense of nature.

'The fact that 99 percent of humanity does not
understand nature is the prime reason for humanity's
failure to exercise it's option to attain universally
sustainable physical success on this planet.' --
Buckminster Fuller. Synergetics 000.125b
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 06:30:59 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Re: more information about geodesic domes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="------------49F6EFCCFAF114CC7403B581"

--------------49F6EFCCFAF114CC7403B581
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For the math you can check out my pages...

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey


Rebecca wrote:

>  I am an Engineering student and i would like to receive more
> information about Bucksminster Fuller and his works. My e-mail is
> beyond_image@hotmail.com            thank you for your attention, hope
> to hear from you soon.





--------------49F6EFCCFAF114CC7403B581
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
For the math you can check out my pages...

<P>- Dave Anderson&nbsp; monkey@one.net&nbsp; <A HREF="http://w3.one.net/~monkey">http://w3.one.net/~monkey</A>
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>Rebecca wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=-1>I am an Engineering student and
i would like to receive more information about Bucksminster Fuller and
his works. My e-mail is <A HREF="mailto:beyond_image@hotmail.com">beyond_image@hotmail.com</A></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
thank you for your attention, hope to hear from you soon.</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;

<P>&nbsp;
</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------49F6EFCCFAF114CC7403B581--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 06:07:31 -0800
Reply-To:     bward@metro.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Bruce Ward <bward@METRO.NET>
Organization: chh yeh right…
Subject:      Re: The Dearth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

gb Earth wrote:
>
> >History shows that civilizations rise and collapse
> >along with their agriculture and natural resource base.
>
> Or is it that advances in culture have created a climate for
> agricultural progress?

No

> And which did come first, the chicken or the egg?

Since fish, reptiles and insects a) predate chickens and b) lay eggs, it
seems rather OBvious that eggs came before chickens.

<snip>

> >Planting trees produces surprising positive feedback effects
> >contributing to almost every major and minor local and
> >global problem.

Planting trees may be a "good thing", but it is NOT a "positive feedback
effect".

You have got the sign wrong AND misused the term "feedback".
ALL self-actuated error-correcting feedback is negative.  ALWAYS.

Positive feedback tends toward runaway oscillation and is systemically
destructive.  Positive feedback is exemplified by the "more is better"
syndrome.

"If more gas is good (you go faster), then More gas must be better!"
Wrong.  The engine blows up.
"If Oxygen is good (you die without it), then More Oxygen must be
better!"
Wrong.  Your lungs burn up.

Breathing is a negative feedback function.  Your body has no mechanism
for detecting a shortage of Oxygen.  What is monitored is an
overabundance of CO2.  You are forced to breathe in order to reduce
this.  Negative feedback.

The output goal is homeostasis, not "more".

Positive DOES NOT EQUAL "good".
Negative DOES NOT EQUAL "bad".

Getting the sign wrong can reduce a lot of hard work to garbage.
Go study some cybernetics.

> >It's A Race Between Utopia And Oblivion!
...and the fix is in...



In Theory, theory and practice are the same;
In Practice, they're not.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:05:50 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: more information about geodesic domes
Comments: cc: beyond_image@hotmail.com
In-Reply-To:  <000701bde561$7a7f6680$1c0687d0@mycomputer.coqui.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01BDE618.F51D8CC0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BDE618.F51D8CC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Rebecca,

Please take a look at my web site (URL below). You should be able to find
just about ANYTHING you want to know about RBF.  If not, please feel free to
email me.

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/


    -----Original Message-----
    From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
[mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Rebecca
    Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 6:12 AM
    To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
    Subject: more information about geodesic domes


    I am an Engineering student and i would like to receive more information
about Bucksminster Fuller and his works. My e-mail is
beyond_image@hotmail.com
                thank you for your attention, hope to hear from you soon.

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BDE618.F51D8CC0
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3509.100"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D440590018-22091998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Dear=20
Rebecca,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D440590018-22091998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Please=20
take a look at my web site (URL below). You should be able to find just =
about=20
ANYTHING you want to know about RBF.&nbsp; If not, please feel free to =
email=20
me.</FONT></SPAN><BR></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Joe S Moore <A=20
href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com">joemoore@cruzio.com</A><SPAN=20
class=3D440590018-22091998><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
</FONT></SPAN><BR>Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/</A><BR></FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> List for the =
discussion of=20
    Buckminster Fuller's works =
[mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]<B>On=20
    Behalf Of</B> Rebecca<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 21, 1998 =
6:12=20
    AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU<BR><B>Subject:</B> more=20
    information about geodesic domes<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am an Engineering student and i would like to =
receive=20
    more information about Bucksminster Fuller and his works. My e-mail =
is <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:beyond_image@hotmail.com">beyond_image@hotmail.com</A></FO=
NT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
    =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
    thank you for your attention, hope to hear from you=20
soon.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BDE618.F51D8CC0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:13:08 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
Comments: To: mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
In-Reply-To:  <360611EB.863E26EF@SpaceshipEarth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear SS Earth,

Do you have a name?


Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
> [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Spaceship Earth
> Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 1:45 AM
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
>
(big snip)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:05:16 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      Re: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> > >History shows that civilizations rise and collapse
> > >along with their agriculture and natural resource base.
> >
> > Or is it that advances in culture have created a climate for
> > agricultural progress?
>
> No
>
Developments in agriculture, from the first harvesting of wild seeds to the
latest genetic engineering are scientific discoveries and technological
artifacts, which are social and cultural advances. People have come to see
agriculture, forestry and the environment as primitive and not a part of
modern 'culture.' People think food comes from the store. We've lost our sense
of nature and forgotten the source of our life support. Nature and the
environment, and ultimately humans suffer for it..
>
> > >Planting trees produces surprising positive feedback effects
> > >contributing to almost every major and minor local and
> > >global problem.
>
> Planting trees may be a "good thing", but it is NOT a "positive feedback
> effect".
>
> You have got the sign wrong AND misused the term "feedback".
> ALL self-actuated error-correcting feedback is negative.  ALWAYS.
>
> Getting the sign wrong can reduce a lot of hard work to garbage.
> Go study some cybernetics.
>
Thank you for your comment. I'll take this into consideration. Minor flaws can
indeed cause great damage.
>
> > >It's A Race Between Utopia And Oblivion!
> ...and the fix is in...
>
To me it's obvious that the 'fix' does not reside in mere artifacts and
scientific discoveries alone. If it were, we'd be living in utopia already.
Humanity has an overwhelming technological capacity to resolve the worlds
many pressing life support problems, but not the will, the vision, or the
understanding to do it. I've recognized this fact from early childhood. The
answer is metaphysical and not physical. The need is not for new technologies,
but for new arts, new communications and new symbolisms to inspire humanity
with the knowledge, the vision, the will and the wisdom to work together and
use the capacity we have to achieve life support abundance for all. What we
need is a convincing and compelling vision for the achievement of complete
physical success for all humanity -- a vision so compelling that it must be
realized. I see that people in this newsgroup are working toward that end. God
bless you all!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:34:29 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      The ship of non-state.

MESSAGE from ="List 22-SEP-1998 13:02
 Kirby, your last message got me to thinking. Are there any virtual
 voting web sites on the net? And if not I think that developing a
 prototype site along those lines would be a good project. Security and
 Privacy protocols and such would have to be worked out and maybe having
 a test site running parallel with the set up being used now for the next
 presidential election would yield some interesting results.

 If anyone has any information concerning the existence of a site I've
 just suggested please post it and or any other suggestions concerning
 the design of such a site.

 Thanks

 Mark Somers.
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      22-SEP-1998 13:34
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 sorta like Rush Limbaugh, having a vote on whether Clinton should be stoned
 to death --Just call 900/KILLBILL, folks!--  eh?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:49:11 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: education intimation

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      22-SEP-1998 13:49
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 funny, you should say that, Cliff, about people & events
 that were apparently sitting "invisibly" on your nose (post-WW2);
 if you'd like to subscribeto our paper ($20/year),
 the number is 800/453-4108 -- that's my #1 suggestion.  of course,
 it may just be another layer of the onion, not the ultimate
 in Universal History Today; who, knoweth?
    of course, if you're going to subscribe to Bucky's populist ****,
 as engaged to the hilt by Kirby et al, that could be a mystaque (if
 y'know what I mean .-)

 --The End of History -- not, again ?!?
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:49:04 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Re: The ship of non-state.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Brian Hutchings wrote:

> MESSAGE from ="List 22-SEP-1998 13:02
>  Kirby, your last message got me to thinking. Are there any virtual
>  voting web sites on the net? And if not I think that developing a
>  prototype site along those lines would be a good project. Security and
>  Privacy protocols and such would have to be worked out and maybe having
>  a test site running parallel with the set up being used now for the next
>  presidential election would yield some interesting results.
>
>  If anyone has any information concerning the existence of a site I've
>  just suggested please post it and or any other suggestions concerning
>  the design of such a site.
>
>  Thanks
>
>  Mark Somers.
> - - - - -
>
> <<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      22-SEP-1998 13:34
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  sorta like Rush Limbaugh, having a vote on whether Clinton should be stoned
>  to death --Just call 900/KILLBILL, folks!--  eh?

  HAHAHAHAHAHA. Brian you've got quite the sense of humor, and anyways Bill
can't get stoned because he doesn't inhale.

But seriously folks. I'm going to research the the idea of creating Online
voting. It's seems exactly what Mr. Fuller suggested in one of his books. I
think it was in "Critacal path" you could even short circuit the local city
counsel by carring out community involved voting from day to day or week to week
etc. State legislation to national etc. Really letting ones voice be heard. The
internet would allow for online discussion and debate prior to the a vote being
taken. I also believe that as Bucky pointed out that people would self police
their involvement because they would not be out of the loop ergo powerless.

Thank you

Mark Somers
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:29:14 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Geodesic Portable Structure
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

United States Patent 5,732,514; 3-31-98

http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+12256+0+6+32565+
OF+1+1+1+PN%2f5%2c732%2c514

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:40:16 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      United States Patent 4,945,693
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Concentric dome energy generating building enclosure; 8-7-90

http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+13078+4+2+414088
+OF+4+6+1+Buckminster+AND+Fuller

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:17:22 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Re: United States Patent 4,945,693
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Joe could you repost your messages and check the URL's as they both did not
work for me:

I got this:
Error: Incorrect ifetch argument format.




-----Original Message-----
From: Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:40 PM
Subject: United States Patent 4,945,693


Concentric dome energy generating building enclosure; 8-7-90

http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+13078+4+2+414088
+OF+4+6+1+Buckminster+AND+Fuller

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:22:28 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence E. Couey" <LECouey@INET-1.COM>
Organization: CATT/FX Informationing
Subject:      Re: United States Patent 4,945,693
Comments: To: Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F764E7864A331A758238C694"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------F764E7864A331A758238C694
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kevin,

Append the line just below the URL to the URL:

> http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+13078+4+2+414088
> +OF+4+6+1+Buckminster+AND+Fuller
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That will get you the proper page.

Kevin wrote:
>
> Joe could you repost your messages and check the URL's as they both did not
> work for me:
>
> I got this:
> Error: Incorrect ifetch argument format.
>

Lawrence C.
--

---------------------------------------------
Lawrence E. Couey
 - Convivial Applied Theoretical Technologies/
     FX Informationing
 - mailto:LECouey@INet-1.com
---------------------------------------------
--------------F764E7864A331A758238C694
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Lawrence E. Couey
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf"

begin:          vcard
fn:             Lawrence E. Couey
n:              Couey;Lawrence E.
org:            CATT/FX Informationing
email;internet: LECouey@inet-1.com
title:          Senior R&D Software Engineer
tel;work:       801.489.8773
x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0
x-mozilla-html: FALSE
version:        2.1
end:            vcard


--------------F764E7864A331A758238C694--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:46:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Re: United States Patent 4,945,693
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Indeed I had already done that, and still got the problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence E. Couey <LECouey@INET-1.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: United States Patent 4,945,693


Kevin,

Append the line just below the URL to the URL:

>
http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+13078+4+2+414088
> +OF+4+6+1+Buckminster+AND+Fuller
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That will get you the proper page.

Kevin wrote:
>
> Joe could you repost your messages and check the URL's as they both did
not
> work for me:
>
> I got this:
> Error: Incorrect ifetch argument format.
>

Lawrence C.
--

---------------------------------------------
Lawrence E. Couey
- Convivial Applied Theoretical Technologies/
     FX Informationing
- mailto:LECouey@INet-1.com
---------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:08:53 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      education dysintimation

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      23-SEP-1998  3:08
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I'm sorry for presenting such post-WW2 arcana, I guess, but
 if you really want to observe the hidden (not to say,
 invisibly) results of ODESSA etc., beyond the populist trashing
 of such as Werner von Braun, look-up a copy
 of _The Hitler Book_, Copyr.'74 by Schiller Inst.
    it goes a lot deeper than (e.g.) the recent work
 by Martin Lee, as with the amazing application
 of aversive techniques to Brandt's cohorts at Wiltern Park,
 England, thence deployed in the Occupied German Goment.  or,
 you can "resubscribe" to the Lone-Nut Theory of Two World Wars,
 heh-heh.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:30:48 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond

MESSAGE from =mail@SpaceshipEarth.com 21-SEP-1998  9:49
 No More Hoping: Food for Everyone
 Moving Agriculture Into the Space Age
 And The Birth of a Truly Scientific Civilization

 (Or, is humanities unused potential so great that
 a farm boy or girl can save the world? Yea, but it's a
 long row to hoe!)

 Humanity still lives in the Dark Ages of poverty and
 hunger caused by ignorance. A new agricultural
 revolution is necessary to give birth to a truly
 'Scientific Civilization.'
        Agriculture is the backbone of civilization. Without
 agricultural development there can be no peace, no
 freedom and no human development. Throughout
 history, human progress has been directly linked to
 developments in agriculture.
        History shows that civilizations rise and collapse
 along with their agriculture and natural resource base.
 Three agricultural revolutions have allowed humanity
 to survive and prosper to the present day. The
 domestication and cultivation of food crops 10,000
 years ago created an agricultural revolution that gave
 rise to the first ancient civilizations. Genetic breeding
 and improved cultivation techniques created a second
 agricultural revolution in the 1700s which gave rise to the
 Industrial Revolution, which in turn industrialized agriculture.
 The Green Revolution in genetic breeding in the 1970s
 prevented a world-wide famine, but only by a small margin.
        Agriculture faces many formidable new challenges:
 genetic erosion, resistant pests and diseases, water
 shortages, soil erosion, urban expansion, increasingly
 unpredictable weather, lack of new arable lands,
 population growth, farmers displaced by war, and
 more. These problems not only challenge agriculture
 but are a challenge to civilization. Over the next 30
 years of population growth we must get twice the yield
 from every acre of land just to maintain current levels
 of poverty and malnutrition.
        The times demand a new agricultural revolution.
 It is now technologically and economically feasible to
 launch a new revolution in agriculture that will banish
 poverty and hunger to the Dark Ages of history and
 give birth to a truly 'scientific civilization.' The next
 agricultural revolution will make or break humanity. It's
 a race between utopia and oblivion.

 'Our future security now depends... on developing new,
 more productive farming technologies.' -- Lester R.
 Brown


                             Planting Trees:
        A Comprehensive Solution to World Problems
 The regreening of the earth is reported by experts in
 many fields to be the only cure for many world
 problems and prevention of future global disasters.
 Environmental experts, such as Lester R. Brown of the
 World Watch Institute, report that it's necessary to
 conduct a world wide tree planting effort similar in
 intensity to a mobilization for war. Without such an
 effort scientist claim that many environmental
 problems of a catastrophic nature cannot be prevented
 from occurring in the near future. Planting trees
 produces surprising positive feedback effects
 contributing to almost every major and minor local and
 global problem. It's a major solution to major world
 problems.

 'Planting and growing increasing quantities of trees is
 the scientific solution to Earth's environmental
 dilemma.' -- Dr. Richard St Barb Baker

                 The World Peace Garden
 The synergetic forces of the Earth's biosphere, it's air
 currents, ocean currents, solar, geologic, and biological
 forces have converged on the equator, in the Central
 Andean country of Ecuador, on the West Coast of
 South America, to create a model biosphere of the
 Earth, encompassing 28 of the earth's 30 basic
 life-zones, from tropic to arctic, and desert to pluvial,
 with altitudes ranging from sea-level to alpine, all
 within a country about the size of the state of
 Colorado. The climate, soils, and plant life are so
 fragmented that a single farm may encompass wet and
 dry, and mild and frigid climates, and several varieties
 of soils and types of vegetation. Ecologist marvel and
 are awed by the incredible diversity.
        The small country of Ecuador houses essentially
 every climate type found on Earth and is widely
 considered to have the highest diversity of plant
 species found anywhere in the world. Ecuador is a
 natural "climatron" adaptable to the culture of almost
 any of the world's flora, yet there is no botanical
 garden of major importance located in Ecuador.
        As a model biosphere of the Earth, and world
 center of biological diversity, located on the equator,
 at the geographic center of the planer, Ecuador is
 ideally situated for a world-class botanical garden
 representing the diversity of our planet, and an
 international site of learning about life. The World
 Peace Garden will be a place where cultures from every
 region of the world can come together in an
 international spirit of cooperation and ethnic pride to
 build a Garden of the World, and a symbol of unity and
 diversity.
        Due to the unique and very fragmented nature of
 Ecuador's environment, the World Peace Garden may
 be situated in a small valley, where, within the distance
 of a few feet, the natural climate will range from tropic
 to temperate, and wet to dry. The natural climate may
 be manipulated and varied further utilizing the design
 principles of microclimatology.
        The World Peace Garden proposes three highly
 educational gardening layouts: a garden modeled on
 the 35 floristic regions of the world; the 12 world
 centers of diversity for our food and economic crops
 (the Central Andes is one); and phylogenetic gardens,
 which are family trees for plants, designed as
 gardening beds, laid out in a way that lets you see the
 relationship that exist between closely related kinds of
 plants.

        The Peru - Ecuador Peace Sanctuary
 The resolution to a long standing border dispute
 between Ecuador and Peru in a sparsely populated, but
 rich biological region of the Amazon Basin is the
 establishment of this region as an International Peace
 Sanctuary jointly administered by Ecuador, Peru and
 neighboring countries. Border disputes similar to this
 one lie simmering in many regions of the world. The
 establishment of the Peru - Ecuador Peace Sanctuary
 could set an example for the peaceful resolution of
 border disputes around the globe.

                    Universal Peace Garden
 The Earth is the gene bank of the universe, and we are
 burning it to the ground. But through the mobilization
 of a vast army of paradise builders, we will regreen the
 Earth from the arctic to the desert and from the sea
 shores to the mountain tops, and rebuild the Earth
 greater than it ever could have been before upon the
 foundation of a planet that we almost completely
 destroyed. And from here -- proceeding on to the
 planets spreading the miracle of life throughout the
 universe.

 It's A Race Between Utopia And Oblivion!
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      23-SEP-1998  3:30
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 we have covered this border-dyspute, extensively.
    it's being fueled bya Luigi Enaudi (sp.?),
 a fellow of Kissinger who is no-longer an official
 of our goment, but is still promoting the hostilities.
    the proposed environmental bufferzone has been well-
 mapped by a consortium of Commonwealth mining entities,
 in an attempt at a huge landgrab,
 as they have just been doing in the Great Lakes region
 of Africa, and as Rio Tinto Zinc is pulling
 with "Aboriginal Land Rights" -- that is,
 ethnicall-cleansed enclaves.
    so, is this "utopia" proposed to be boughten,
 with the "oblivion" of nations & the triumph
 of Obnoxico?

 source: *Executive Intelligence Review* of this year.

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:42:24 -0700
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From:         Lisa Pease <lpease@STOPSPAMGTE.NET>
Organization: gte.net
Subject:      Re: A warning shot...

Kirby Urner wrote in message <36089b39.164143331@news.teleport.com>...
>
>
>Urner to politicians: a shot across your bow...
>
>Dumping the Starr stuff in the public domain was the
>politicians' revenge for everybody turning on to the
>internet and leaving them out of the spotlight too
>dang much.
>
>So now the clowns have crashed our party, have stormed
>the internet with a vengeance with their googoo porn,
>starring El Presidente hisself no less!
>

It's just a bunch of little boys who never got over the embarassment of
Watergate and have been lusting for revenge ever since. To equate subverting
the constitution and lying about an illicit sex act shows the poverty of the
Republican party. No wonder people are leaving it in droves. My doctor was a
Republican for his whole life until recently. He says the party no longer
represents him. Who DOES it represent???
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:44:55 -0500
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From:         Mark Oeltjenbruns <mark_oeltjenbruns@STARKEY.COM>
Subject:      Dome related patents
In-Reply-To:  <000301bde691$92f4b900$eda8fea9@oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Recently Joe S Moore posted two patents.  Here is a perhaps a better way to
view them.  The IBM site includes pictures for most patents after 1971 or
so.  Unfortunately most of Bucky's patents occur prior to this.  A very neat
site never the less, I've spent hours looking up patents.  It is really
amazing what you can find.  This site also tells if the patent has expired
or not.
One of the things I've started to do is start a collection of dome related
patents, which I don't have with me at this time..  This might make for a
nice addition to the many Bucky web pages out there.  The biggest thing I've
found is that a lot of the patents are very similar and it would be nice to
have a description of what they contain and how useful it would be to look
at them.

Another cute thing I found was a design for a tensigrity based chair.  Kind
of a neat design.

Be forewarned, looking up and following patent trails can be very addictive.


http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4945693

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5732514

-Mark
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 05:11:27 +0000
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From:         HOOVER <hoov@GLOBAL.NET>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Subject:      Re: A warning shot...
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Lisa Pease wrote:
>
> Kirby Urner wrote in message <36089b39.164143331@news.teleport.com>...
> >
> >
> >Urner to politicians: a shot across your bow...
> >
> >Dumping the Starr stuff in the public domain was the
> >politicians' revenge for everybody turning on to the
> >internet and leaving them out of the spotlight too
> >dang much.
> >
> >So now the clowns have crashed our party, have stormed
> >the internet with a vengeance with their googoo porn,
> >starring El Presidente hisself no less!
> >
>
> It's just a bunch of little boys who never got over the embarassment of
> Watergate and have been lusting for revenge ever since. To equate subverting
> the constitution and lying about an illicit sex act shows the poverty of the
> Republican party. No wonder people are leaving it in droves. My doctor was a
> Republican for his whole life until recently. He says the party no longer
> represents him. Who DOES it represent???


Ah it's Lisa, the queen of the leftists!  Why are we not surprised
that you would take this view?  Go back to your needlepoint.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:16:54 -0400
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From:         John Belt <belt@OSWEGO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
Comments: To: Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <3607F4EB.BCA7BB2F@SpaceshipEarth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        Hello, Hello,,, calling Spaceship Earth, Hello.....

Thanks for your posts.  i have sent direct mail to you twice with
it bouncing back both times.  Going to other sensory methods next.
        :-),   jb

..........................................................................
John Belt, Design Faculty         Studio Phone:  315-341-2867 / voice mail
Department of Technology          Office Phone:  315-341-2868
Oswego State University           DEPT FAX-Attn/jb  315-341-3363
Oswego, New York 13126            Home Phone:    315-342-2280
..........................................................................
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:40:58 -0700
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From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Power
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Over on the Tesla list we have been having some interesting discussions
about  "deregulation" of power.  One of the regulars there happens to be a
top-notch consultant to the power industry, and has a lot to say on this
subject.  If this thread heats up i'll see if he will allow some of his
comments to be reposted here.

Generally it looks like a lot of this new trend will be a sham.  Some of the
companies that got into this game at the outset are pulling out, especially
in California.

Somehow i'm not surprised about what's happening in Montana.  I have always
had this impression that its government tended towards a weird form of
corporate socialism -- an impression that was intensified after spending a
week in the Judith Basin in 1996.

Bucky seemed to be largely unaware of Tesla's research into the "Magnifying
Power Transmitter", which was intended to use a form of radio waves to
transmit universal power to everyone, without wires.  Since Tesla was
prevented from building this, we have no idea how well it might have worked
-- so Bucky's proposal for a worldwide power grid made a lot of sense.  But
cheap, localized power generation, which would have to be much more
efficient than any current system, would also be a form of ephemeralization,
in my opinion.  That's why i keep pursuing it.

At 11:04 PM 9/15/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Joe S. Moore, thanks for the link about that Uninterrupted power system.
>
> http://www.amcity.com/milwaukee/stories/062998/story8.html
>
>>From what I read it looks as though that instead of a battery for backup
>they could and should integrate a fuel cell into the system and generate
>power too. And the reason I emphasize should is that for all fuel cell
>systems one needs good power regulating sub systems and it seems they've
>got that already.
>
>Now some politics of electrical power:
>
>The single largest supplier in Montana has decided to get out of the
>power business. Consequently we've been experiencing intermediate power
>outages here, some that have been crashing my computer. Twice already
>tonight, so that as I type this I'm aware this message could get
>deleted. This same Power company last spring pushed through legislation
>making it illegal for the citizens here to buy power from any other
>suppliers for the next four years. The horse crap they told the citizens
>here was that it was in their, the citizens, own interest that they not
>be allowed to purchase power outside of the state because the people
>outside the state were carpetbaggers who would rip them off, if they
>bought their electrical power. And of course the people here believed
>the shit. Since I hate chopping wood it looks like a fuel cell or solar
>cells maybe in my future. hahahaha. I live in the largest town of
>Montana so I'm curious as to what is really going on now that the
>conservatives created a free market for power nation wide and yet the
>local powers that be, seem to be, at least here, pulling political
>shenanigans trying to help their buddies, instead of promoting something
>like solar power or fuel cell power, etc.
>
>
-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:35:01 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
Comments: To: Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <000901bde654$a6f72ce0$260dfea9@oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Joe S Moore wrote:

> Dear SS Earth,
>
> Do you have a name?

Following the example of one Bucky aka Buckminster Fuller aka Guinea Pig B
aka 4D, this question isn't the most useful one to ask.  More than what is
your name, I'd ask what function does your name perform.  Fuller adopted
different names for different projects / components of his personality.

What is more...

Why have I suggested that I remain anonymous? Out of a nostalgia for the
time when, being completely unknown, what I said had some chance of being
heard. The surface contact with some possible reader was without a
wrinkle. The effects of the book rebounded in unforeseen places and
outlined forms I hadn't thought about. The name is a facility. If I have
chosen anonymity, it is not in order to criticize such and such, which I
have never done. It is a way of addressing more directly the possible
reader, the only character here who interests me. Since you don't know who
I am, you will not be tempted to look for the reasons for which I state
what you are reading. Let yourself go to the point of simply saying to
yourself: this is true, this false, that I like, that I don't.
   - ANONYMOUS, 6 April 1980 Le Monde

A man is smothered on one side by his name, on the other by his work. As
if name and work were in complicity to suppress the man and meet over his
dead body in a life of their own. The man gets in the way.
   - Jean COCTEAU, Past Tense

Names are but noise and smoke, obscuring heavenly light.
   - GOETHE, Faust

... for further information, see following URL.

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:13:55 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      Re: Power (wireless)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The original 1938 Lippincott edition of Buckminster Fullers book Nine Chains
to the Moon included a list of events and inventions that he predicted would
occur between July 12th 1938 and July 12, 1948. This list was not included in
the later reprint edition in the 1970s presumably because so few of the
predictions came to pass. First on the list was, "Beamed radio transmission of
power employing gold as the reflecting surface."
>
Michael Riversong wrote:
>
> Bucky seemed to be largely unaware of Tesla's research into the "Magnifying
> Power Transmitter", which was intended to use a form of radio waves to
> transmit universal power to everyone, without wires.  Since Tesla was
> prevented from building this, we have no idea how well it might have worked
> -- so Bucky's proposal for a worldwide power grid made a lot of sense.  But
> cheap, localized power generation, which would have to be much more
> efficient than any current system, would also be a form of ephemeralization,
> in my opinion.  That's why i keep pursuing it.
>
> -- Michael Riversong
> P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
> Professional Harpist
> Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
> MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:17:16 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      Re: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
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Thanks for the information. Will investigate this further. All you have to do
is follow the trail of dollars in any situation.

Brian Hutchings wrote:
>
> <<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      23-SEP-1998  3:30
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  we have covered this border-dyspute, extensively.
>     it's being fueled bya Luigi Enaudi (sp.?),
>  a fellow of Kissinger who is no-longer an official
>  of our goment, but is still promoting the hostilities.
>     the proposed environmental bufferzone has been well-
>  mapped by a consortium of Commonwealth mining entities,
>  in an attempt at a huge landgrab,
>  as they have just been doing in the Great Lakes region
>  of Africa, and as Rio Tinto Zinc is pulling
>  with "Aboriginal Land Rights" -- that is,
>  ethnicall-cleansed enclaves.
>     so, is this "utopia" proposed to be boughten,
>  with the "oblivion" of nations & the triumph
>  of Obnoxico?
>
>  source: *Executive Intelligence Review* of this year.
>
>  --The Duke of Oil
>  http://www.tarpley.net
>
Spaceship Earth wrote:
>
(big snip)
>         The Peru - Ecuador Peace Sanctuary
>  The resolution to a long standing border dispute
>  between Ecuador and Peru in a sparsely populated, but
>  rich biological region of the Amazon Basin is the
>  establishment of this region as an International Peace
>  Sanctuary jointly administered by Ecuador, Peru and
>  neighboring countries. Border disputes similar to this
>  one lie simmering in many regions of the world. The
>  establishment of the Peru - Ecuador Peace Sanctuary
>  could set an example for the peaceful resolution of
>  border disputes around the globe.
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:55:26 -0400
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From:         John Belt <belt@OSWEGO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
Comments: To: Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <3607F4EB.BCA7BB2F@SpaceshipEarth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Spaceship Earth wrote:

> >.........<SNIP>........
> > You have got the sign wrong AND misused the term "feedback".
> > ALL self-actuated error-correcting feedback is negative.  ALWAYS.
> >
> > Getting the sign wrong can reduce a lot of hard work to garbage.
> > Go study some cybernetics.
> >
.........................................................................

        Greetings and Thanks for the post.  i would like to study some
good web sites on the subject of "cybernetics".  Recently had a friend
ask if i knew of any sites and i have not as yet searched for them and
would appreciate a good jump start from you if possible.  If you could
post some web site addresses for cybernetics study and also any
information on LISTSERV discussion groups that frequent the topic
it would be of value to me and others on the list.

        Thanks for the vision,
        john belt
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:52:40 -0800
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From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
Organization: gte.net
Subject:      RBF electronic notebooks
Mime-Version: 1.0
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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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R. Buckminster Fuller would roll over in his grave if he saw my
Mathematica 3.0 notebooks based on discoveries based on his books
Synergetics, 1975, and Synergetics 2, 1979, because I have dwelt on the
square roots of minus unity and fractals instead of much quicker
(efficient) applications using only integers (mod a prime). I did it
just to show that it can be done with B numbers and Synergetics
coordinates, and "the paradox of the computer" is that you can get
things done now a days with inefficient methods.

All of the notebooks are pre evaluated so you don't have to download the

packages RBFields.m and SynCoordinates.m unless you have Mathematica 3.0

and want to experiment with them.

Abstract for Bucky Number Mandelbrot:

The Mandelbrot set computation iterates until a certain distance exceeds

two. Two is twice the distance of unity for complex numbers. Unity for
B_3 numbers is B[{1,1,-2}]. The VectorDistance function in Synergetics
coordinates measures the distance by way of nearest neighbors, similar
to the "manhattan" distance for perpendicular coordinates. A
Mandelbot-like set is generated in this notebook, iterating until
VectorDistance is twice the VectorDistance of unity for B_3 numbers.

http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/Applications/Complexity/0209-663

Abstract for Four Triangle Fractals using Bucky Numbers and Synergetics
Coordinates:

B_3 numbers and my version of "Synergetics coordinates" are used to make

four fractals based on the same method: the Sierpinski triangle when the

Mean is used; a trefoil I call the "Harmonic Trinity" when the
HarmonicMean is used; two thirds of a circle when the GeometricMean is
used; and something else when the RootMeanSquare is used.

http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/Applications/Complexity/0209-674

Abstract for the three Buckminster Fuller Notebooks:

B numbers are named after Bucky Fuller. They are based on the
Synergetics coordinate system. They are multi-dimensional fields over
the rationals. The notebook BuckyNumbers.nb looks at the square roots of

minus unity for B numbers of different dimensions.

R. Buckminster Fuller wrote the books, Synergetics, published in 1975,
and Synergetics 2, published in 1979, where he uses the term
"Synergetics 60 degree coordinate system". Bucky wrote that he
discovered the coordinate system of nature in 1940, but his books don't
give concrete examples of them. That is the topic of the notebook
SynergeticsCoordinates.nb.

In the notebook TetraGlobe.nb the Synergetics coordinate system is used
to normalize the globe to the surface of a tetrahedron, and the earth is
displayed
with the package WorldPlot as an unfolded tetrahedron (a triangle).

http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/Applications/Other/0209-450

The notebooks can be viewed with the free MathReader 3.0 if you don't
have Mathematica.

http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/General/MathReader


       Cliff Nelson
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:27:32 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: A warning shot...

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      24-SEP-1998  9:27
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 this "revenge" line might be called the "media-massage" line,
 or otherwise MacLuhanite crappola (he of the Rectal Display Unit .-)
    just "follow the money", and you have a guy who is *way*
 too rich for his or any body else's good, other than
 the *American Expectorator-upon* and his own *Philadelphia Enquirer*,
 and so on: the funder of the "Arkansas Project" at over $2M,
 amongst other things supporting the primary "Whitewatergate" witness,
 retired judge David Hale; the hot-white tip o'the iceberg?

 thus quoth:
  It's just a bunch of little boys who never got over the embarassment of
  Watergate and have been lusting for revenge ever since. To equate subverting

 --The duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:08:26 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      RBF electronic notebooks

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      24-SEP-1998 11:08
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 wow, what in Hell was that ?!?...  to me, out of the garble
 o'prose, it looks like trilinear (planar) co-ordination,
 what you call B_3, which'd be quite "standardized".
    glad to see the WorldPlot, a la Bucky's Omni-
 directional Typewriter; was that the one that I'd cited, before?

  http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/Applications/Other/0209-450

 how large is the viewer for *.m or *.nb files?

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:16:19 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: President Fuller

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      24-SEP-1998 11:16
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 what is this supposed position (surely not the "lending" one) ??

 thus quoth:
  CIA for many years, and held a top administrative position in that agency. I

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:19:19 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: George "of the political Jungle"

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      24-SEP-1998 11:19
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 thank you, your Political MADness!

 thus quoth:
  I don't remeber George being knighted, Brian. Casper (The unfriendly
  ghost)  Weinberg was knighted in place of any higher officials for the
  really great job he did of lavashing enourmous amounts of American tax
  payers money on the likes of Stars Wars and

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:57:43 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Leblonski <leblonski@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      http://members.aol.com/leblonski/

http://members.aol.com/leblonski/

Unique geodesic structure near Cherokee, NC.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:34:29 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
Organization: gte.net
Subject:      Re: RBF electronic notebooks
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      24-SEP-1998 11:08
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> wow, what in Hell was that ?!?...  to me, out of the garble

I'll never use Netscape Communicator again.

> o'prose, it looks like trilinear (planar) co-ordination,
> what you call B_3, which'd be quite "standardized".

They are not trilinear. No mathematician will tell me what they are called
or if they are new.

>    glad to see the WorldPlot, a la Bucky's Omni-
> directional Typewriter; was that the one that I'd cited, before?
>
>  http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/Applications/Other/
>0209-450
>
> how large is the viewer for *.m or *.nb files?
>

I don't know for sure. Maybe 16 MB, you get just about the whole front end
of Mma 3.0.

       Cliff Nelson
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:49:46 GMT
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From:         Katyb25401 <katyb25401@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      where can i buy trusses,struts and connectors for a small 20'
              dome?

where can i buy trusses,struts and connectors for a small 20' dome?

prefer aluminium or steel.   thanks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:58:35 -0700
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From:         Ernie <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Subject:      Re: where can i buy trusses,struts and connectors for a small
              20'dome?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> From: Katyb25401 <katyb25401@AOL.COM>


>
> where can i buy trusses,struts and connectors for a small 20' dome?

I  offer these for sale (struts + connectors). Prefer the aluminum, which
can be 1-2 inch square tube ideally. It is Reynolds 6063 type, very good
for a dome. The cylinder hubs are sch. 40 or 80 pipe. Cover plate(s) can be
added and rivetted or screwed on for reinforcement or to cover the hub
hole. There's no need for welding as everything is bolted on, with military
grade NAS hardware if so desired. What type of dome? I do several which you
can see at http://www.gardendome.com
(the latest at http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/dome_on_the_range.htm) If you
do steel it is stronger but much heavier, costs less but takes longer to
machine. Plus you have to add the anti-corrosion treatment.
Ernie
>
> prefer aluminium or steel.   thanks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:38:30 -0800
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From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
Organization: gte.net
Subject:      Re: RBF electronic notebooks
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

><

<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      24-SEP-1998 11:08
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> wow, what in Hell was that ?!?...  to me, out of the garble

OK, another try. No HTML this time , no Netscape, no sentences that begin
with prepositions.
.........................

R. Buckminster Fuller would roll over in his grave if he saw my
Mathematica 3.0 notebooks based on discoveries based on his books
Synergetics, 1975, and Synergetics 2, 1979, because I have dwelt on the
square roots of minus unity and fractals instead of much quicker
(efficient) applications using only integers (mod a prime). I did it
just to show that it can be done with B numbers and Synergetics
coordinates, and "the paradox of the computer" is that you can get
things done now a days with inefficient methods.

All of the notebooks are pre-evaluated so you don't have to download the
packages RBFields.m and SynCoordinates.m unless you have Mathematica 3.0
and want to experiment with them.

Abstract for Bucky Number Mandelbrot:

The Mandelbrot set computation iterates until a certain distance exceeds
two. Two is twice the distance of unity for complex numbers. Unity for
B_3 numbers is B[{1,1,-2}]. The VectorDistance function in Synergetics
coordinates measures the distance by way of nearest neighbors, similar
to the "Manhattan" distance for perpendicular coordinates. A
Mandelbrot-like set is generated in this notebook, iterating until the
VectorDistance is twice the VectorDistance of unity for B_3
numbers.

http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/Applications/Complexity/0209-663

Abstract for Four Triangle Fractals using Bucky Numbers and Synergetics
Coordinates:

B_3 numbers and my version of "Synergetics coordinates" are used to make
four fractals based on the same method: the Sierpinski triangle when the
Mean is used; a trefoil I call the "Harmonic Trinity" when the HarmonicMean
is used; two thirds of a circle when the GeometricMean is used; and
something else when the RootMeanSquare is
used.

http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/Applications/Complexity/0209-674

Abstract for the three Buckminster Fuller Notebooks:

B numbers are named after Bucky Fuller. They are based on the
Synergetics coordinate system. They are multi-dimensional fields over
the rationals. The notebook BuckyNumbers.nb looks at the square roots of
minus unity for B numbers of different dimensions.

R. Buckminster Fuller wrote the books, Synergetics, published in 1975,
and Synergetics 2, published in 1979, where he uses the term
"Synergetics 60 degree coordinate system". Bucky wrote that he
discovered the coordinate system of nature in 1940, but his books don't
give concrete examples of them. That is the topic of the notebook
SynergeticsCoordinates.nb.

The Synergetics coordinate system is used to normalize the globe to the
surface of a tetrahedron, and the earth is displayed with the package
WorldPlot as an unfolded tetrahedron (a triangle), in the notebook
TetraGlobe.nb.

http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/Applications/Other/0209-450

The notebooks can be viewed with the free MathReader 3.0 if you don't
have Mathematica.

http://www.mathsource.com/cgi-bin/MathSource/General/MathReader


       Cliff Nelson
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:34:43 -0700
Reply-To:     "Trevor at J. Whirler" <trevor@jwhirler.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Trevor at J. Whirler" <trevor@JWHIRLER.COM>
Organization: aracnet.com
Subject:      BFI WWW updates
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Buckminster Fuller Institute 2040 Alameda Padre Serra, #224 Santa Barbara,
California 93103 Phone: 805-962-0022 Fax: 805-962-4440

Friends:

Here are some simple corrections to the "News" page at
http://www.bfi.org/news.htm - I've placed the areas to change and the
suggested changes in [[double brackets]] in the following.  The changes
are (1) add a space between 'collector,' and 'let' (2) change
box2321@teleport.com to trevor@jwhirler.com (3) change the non-hypertext
listing to a hypertext link (4) change '&' to 'and' (5) add a hyperlink to
my URL. Many thanks!

TEXT AS IT READS NOW:

If you are a Bucky reader or [[collector,let]] me know!

Trevor Blake of J. Whirler Used [[&]] Rare Children's Books has a personal
collection which includes much by and about R. Buckminster Fuller. He
writes "if you are a Bucky reader or collector and would like to be
notified when I have books for sale, drop me a line and I'll add you to my
list. And if you have Bucky books for sale (particularly first editions,
signed copies and the like) let me know!" His P. O. Box 2321, Portland OR
97208-2321 USA telephone: 503-236-2364 / e-mail: [[box2321@teleport.com]]

CODE AS IT READS NOW:

        <hr>
        <p>I<strong>f you are a Bucky reader or collector,let me
        know!</strong></p>
        <p align="left">Trevor Blake of J. Whirler Used [[&amp;]]
        Rare Children's Books has a personal collection which
        includes much by and about R. Buckminster Fuller. He
        writes &quot;if you are a Bucky reader or collector and
        would like to be notified when I have books for sale,
        drop me a line and I'll add you to my list. And if you
        have Bucky books for sale (particularly first editions,
        signed copies and the like) let me know!&quot; His P. O.
        Box 2321, Portland OR 97208-2321 USA telephone:
        503-236-2364 / e-mail: [[box2321@teleport.com]]</p>


TEXT AS IT SHOULD READ:

If you are a Bucky reader or [[collector, let]] me know!

Trevor Blake of J. Whirler Used [[and]] Rare Children's Books has a
personal collection which includes much by and about R. Buckminster
Fuller. He writes "if you are a Bucky reader or collector and would like
to be notified when I have books for sale, drop me a line and I'll add you
to my list. And if you have Bucky books for sale (particularly first
editions, signed copies and the like) let me know!" His P. O. Box 2321,
Portland OR 97208-2321 USA telephone: 503-236-2364 / e-mail:
[[trevor@jwhirler.com]] [[/ URL: http://www.jwhirler.com/]]

CODE AS IT SHOULD READ:

        <hr>
        <p>I<strong>f you are a Bucky reader or collector,let me
        know!</strong></p>
        <p align="left">Trevor Blake of J. Whirler Used [[and]]
        Rare Children's Books has a personal collection which
        includes much by and about R. Buckminster Fuller. He
        writes &quot;if you are a Bucky reader or collector and
        would like to be notified when I have books for sale,
        drop me a line and I'll add you to my list. And if you
        have Bucky books for sale (particularly first editions,
        signed copies and the like) let me know!&quot; His P. O.
        Box 2321, Portland OR 97208-2321 USA telephone:
        503-236-2364 / e-mail: [[<A
HREF="mailto:trevor@jwhirler.com">trevor@jwhirler.com</A]]
[[/ URL: <A
HREF="http://www.jwhirler.com/">http://www.jwhirler.com/</A>]]
></p>

- Trevor

Telephone: +503-236-2364
Fax: +503-232-0664

--
Trevor Blake     http://www.jwhirler.com/
J. Whirler Used and Rare Children's Books
P. O. Box 2321 Portland OR 97208-2321 USA
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 04:25:31 -0800
Reply-To:     bward@metro.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Bruce Ward <bward@METRO.NET>
Organization: chh yeh right…
Subject:      Re: The Birth of Scientific Civilization -- and Beyond
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John Belt wrote:

>         Greetings and Thanks for the post.  i would like to study some
> good web sites on the subject of "cybernetics".  Recently had a friend
> ask if i knew of any sites and i have not as yet searched for them and
> would appreciate a good jump start from you if possible.  If you could
> post some web site addresses for cybernetics study and also any
> information on LISTSERV discussion groups that frequent the topic
> it would be of value to me and others on the list.
>
>         Thanks for the vision,
>         john belt

I haven't really found any good related sites.  Tying this to GEODESIC
though, Jay Baldwin mentions the work of Stafford Beer toward the end of
"Bucky Works", and says that Beer, in his latest book, makes a
connection between icosahedral arrays and data structure hierarchies.
I've not seen Beer's latest, but some of his earlier titles include:

Brain of the Firm: A Development in Management Cybernetics, 1972, Herder
and Herder  (re-released by John Wiley and Sons, 1979)

The Heart of Enterprise, 1979, John Wiley and Sons  (companion volume to
Brain of the Firm)

Platform for Change, 1975, John Wiley and Sons

Designing Freedom      Good luck finding this one.  It was a suite of
six speeches presented to, I think, the Massey Foundation through the
University of Toronto in the mid seventies.  Published by UoT in a small
format hardcover, 100 pages.  Worth finding.

Also lookup the work of Norbert Wiener, Warren McCulloch, Ross Ashby and
Jay Forrester

Also look under the subjects of Operations Research and General Systems

This kind of stuff seems to me to be as important societally as
synergetic geometry.  It elucidates the kinds of patterns that any
gradeschooler can understand, IF he gets exposed to them.

While Fuller gets the occassional newsblurb, he seems to be viewed as a
little off the wall by mainstream society if his name registers at all.
Cybernetics, now called the science of effective organization and
previously defined as the science of communication and control in the
organism and mechanism, gets even shorter shrift in the media than
Fuller.  Seems almost like suppression by neglect.  Also, at $95 a copy,
not many school libraries,let alone classrooms, are going to spring for
them.

Have fun.  gottagolaterbye  :<)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:53:44 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: where can i buy trusses,struts and connectors for a small 20'
              dome?
In-Reply-To:  <19980925054946.29771.00001857@ng137.aol.com>
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Katyb,

See http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/LINKS/LinksShelterDomesManuf-A-M.htm

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
> [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Katyb25401
> Sent: Friday, September 25, 1998 2:50 AM
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: where can i buy trusses,struts and connectors for a small 20'
> dome?
>
> where can i buy trusses,struts and connectors for a small 20' dome?
>
> prefer aluminum or steel.   thanks.
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:05:01 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Ernie <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Organization: Fastlane Communications (using Airnews.net!)
Subject:      Re: Dome related patents

Mark wrote
> Recently Joe S Moore posted two patents.  Here is a perhaps a better way
to
> view them.  The IBM site includes pictures for most patents after 1971 or
> so.  Unfortunately most of Bucky's patents occur prior to this.

I have a list of dome related patents, with more to be added soon.
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Patents.htm
My latest, "Dome on the Range" :-) -->
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/dome_on_the_range.htm
Ernie
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:41:23 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: RBF electronic notebooks

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      26-SEP-1998 12:41
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 well, 16MB is out of the question, at the momentbeing;
 can you make another stab at a verbal dyscription?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:03:06 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
Organization: gte.net
Subject:      Re: RBF electronic notebooks
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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All of my messages are being chopped up. So, there is a version that is
almost correct on the following URL. All of this stuff has been rejected by
everyone with a Synergetics related web-site.

http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research/brydilyum

       Cliff Nelson
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:42:26 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: RBF electronic notebooks
Comments: cc: nelsoncj@gte.net
In-Reply-To:  <6uje44$53s$1@news-2.news.gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:03:06 -0800, you wrote:

>All of my messages are being chopped up. So, there is a version that is
>almost correct on the following URL. All of this stuff has been rejected by
>everyone with a Synergetics related web-site.
>
>http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research/brydilyum
>
>       Cliff Nelson

Something of an exaggeration -- you've only posted an URL linking to
the Mathematica notebooks rather recently.  You may recall I encouraged
you to develop a website long ago and said when you did I'd link to it.

A lot of what you've posted previously I've also linked to, in the
context of debates on geometry_research (where we've disagreed re
the technicalia -- still do I'm sure).

Now that you've posted an URL for your Mathematica creations, I've
added a link from http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/artindex.html my
alphabetical index of artists and contributors to design science.

Kirby
4D Solutions


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:20:59 -0500
Reply-To:     mail@SpaceshipEarth.com
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
Organization: SpaceshipEarth.com
Subject:      The Spaceship Earth Race: Countdown to Complete Physical Success
              for All Humanity
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The Apollo Project for Spaceship Earth:
         Counting Down 10 Years to Complete
            Physical Success for All Humanity
Ever since the Apollo Project began people have been
asking, 'Where is the Apollo Project for the Earth?
Where is the Apollo Project for humanity? If we can
land a man on the moon, why can't we eliminate
poverty, hunger, illiteracy and war?' The answer is, we
can! Buckminster Fuller spent a lifetime studying
socioeconomic trends. In 1970, immediately after the
first Apollo moon landing, Buckminster Fuller
discovered that as a result of the spectacular advances
in science and technology achieved by the Apollo
Space Program, humanity now possessed, for the first
time in recorded history, the scientific know-how and
technological efficiency to achieve complete physical
success for all humanity within a single 'Design Science
Decade.' For a generation that vision and that potential
has grown and matured and is now ready to be
achieved. A generation after the crash program that
landed man on the moon inspired the world with a 'can
do' attitude, humanity is poised on the brink of
launching the greatest adventure in human history, a
crash program to achieve complete physical success
for all humanity: The Apollo Project for Spaceship
Earth.

'Each year, I get letters from children born after
humans landed on the moon. They say that they
understand that I may empathize with their concern.
They are familiar with all the task that were necessary
to get humans to the moon and back safely. They are
familiar with the Apollo Project's critical path. They
know that humanity can do anything it needs to do.
They wonder, "Why can't we set about to make this
planet Earth work?" The young world gives increasing
evidence of this level of concern. All youth borne since
the 1969 moon landing are deeply familiar with the
application of billions of dollars for the complex
technology of the Apollo Project. The moon that for
three million years had represented the unreachable
had been successfully reached. The post moon-landers
say. "Humanity can do anything it sets out to do. We
need to make the world work for everybody on the
planet. Lets get going." When they find out that I have
discovered what can be technologically accomplished,
they perk up their ears and roll up their sleeves.' - R.
Buckminster Fuller

The effort to heal the global environment... will
eventually become so compelling that America will
demand the [same] kind of determined effort that
made the Apollo Program so productive and inspiring.
Vice-president Al Gore

        A Challenge to the World's Leaders
A challenge to the world's leaders in every field of
human endeavor to rally the spirit of humanity to it's
highest potential and achieve a world of peace without
poverty or want.

An International Grassroots Write-in, Phone-in, Fax-in,
E-mail Campaign to the Leaders of the World, Asking:
'Where is the Apollo Project for Spaceship Earth?'

A generation ago, as man was landing on the moon,
the whole world began to ask: 'If we can land a man on
the moon why can't we eliminate poverty, hunger,
illiteracy, and war?' A generation later, that vision
inspired by Apollo has matured and is ready to be
achieved. We must now ask the world leaders: 'Where
is the Apollo Project for Spaceship Earth? Where is the Apollo
Project for Humanity?' Everyone knows that we have
the ability to end poverty and solve the world's
greatest problems, and to do so very quickly,
with one great big concerted effort, like the crash
program that landed man on the moon, Project Apollo.
We must now show the world's leaders that we have the
vision to do it, for 'when the people lead the leaders
will follow.'

       Speeding up the Process of Human Development
           to Conform with our Space Age Potentials
Humanity must speed up the process of human development
to conform with our Space Age potentials or human affairs,
unable to keep pace with population growth and resource
consumption, will stall into a nose-dive, spinning hopelessly
out of control.

         Successful Goal Setting for Spaceship Earth
Research in goal setting shows that the most successful
goal setting requires the establishment of and a commitment
to a realistic but difficult timetable for the achievement of
that goal. A difficult timetable must be set that gives urgency
and immediacy to the goal and focuses the mind intently upon
it's achievement.

'A date should be set for freeing the world from
poverty once and for all.' -- Muhammad Yunus, Founder
and director Grameen Bank of Bangladesh

'There is no example of any major undertaking in U.S.
history that took longer than a decade to achieve. The
transcontinental railroad, the Panama Canal, Hoover
Dam, Project Apollo, and every war it won took
roughly 10 years or less to complete.' -- Timothy
Morgan

'We have the capability, which can be fully realized
within ten years, of producing and sustaining a higher
standard of living for all humanity than that ever
heretofore experienced or dreamt of by any. This is
not an opinion or a hope - it is an engineeringly
demonstrable fact. This can be done using only the
already proven technology and with the already mined,
refined, and in-recirculating physical resources. This
will be an inherently sustainable physical success for all
humanity and all its generations to come.' -- Buckminster Fuller

'We seek not the worldwide victory of one nation or
system but a worldwide victory of man. The modern
globe is too small, it's weapons are too destructive,
and it's disorders are too contagious to permit any
other kind of victory.' -- John F. Kennedy

            A Working Model for Spaceship Earth
 Before his death, John F. Kennedy sought to achieve a
vision for the development of the Third World that
would rival his vision for the crash program to land
man on the moon. The Working Model for Spaceship
promises to build a bridge to all humanity leading to the
fulfillment of that vision and the achievement of a
worldwide victory for humanity.
        The synergetic forces of the Earth's biosphere, it's air
currents, ocean currents, solar, geologic, and biological
forces have converged on the equator, in the Central
Andean country of Ecuador, on the West Coast of
South America, to create a model biosphere of the
Earth, encompassing 28 of the earth's 30 basic
life-zones, from tropic to arctic, and desert to pluvial,
with altitudes ranging from sea-level to alpine, all
within a country about the size of the state of
Colorado. The climate, soils, and plant life are so
fragmented that a single farm may encompass wet and
dry, and mild and frigid climates, and several varieties
of soils and types of vegetation. Ecologist marvel and
are awed by the incredible diversity.
        This unique diversity of microclimates and ecological
regions offers the impressive opportunity to
establishing a realistic Working Model For Spaceship
Earth, which may be utilized as a center stage for
demonstrating the techniques and technologies for the
regeneration of the Earth and the sustainable
development of the planet, and for the transfer of
those technologies to other regions around the globe.
Ecuador is a natural critical-feedback circuit for the
importing and exporting of world around experience in
human environmental engineering. Bringing together
and demonstrating the many creative alternatives
available for solving the world's environmental and
life-support problems could have a profound effect in
the world. The Working Model for Spaceship Earth
could be a key to achieving life-support abundance
for all humanity.

'We know how to solve every food, clean energy, and
sensible shelter problem in every climate. We have
already invented and tested every necessary technique
and technical device.' -- Bill Mollison

         Low-Technologies in the Space Age
Modern developments in technology, and modern
science applied to age-old primitive technologies, has
resulted in the development of many efficient, highly
advanced life-support technologies that are
low-technologies in their simplicity of design and
function, materials used, and level of skill required for
construction and operation. With levels of productivity
often exceeding modern industrial technologies, they
are as suitable for the First World as the Third World,
and will allow developing countries to make a giant
leap out of impoverishment and into life-support
abundance for all.

The R. Buckminster Fuller
Spaceship Earth Science City (TM)
Strategically Located in Central Texas
A Launch Site for the Spaceship Earth Race
An International Cooperative Effort
to Achieve Complete Physical Success for All Humanity
Within the First Decade of
The Twenty-First Century

SPACESHIP EARTH SCIENCE CITY is the trademark/servicemark of SpaceshipEarth.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:58:09 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.princeton.edu
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: A warning shot...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kenneth C Stahl <kcstahl@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>I'm just glad that all of the efforts undertaken by myself and a few
>others are finally having the desired effect. With any luck at all
>Clinton will soon be in a position where he must resign in disgrace. It
>has taken us a long time to work towards this goal and much of what has
>been done has been done away from public scrutiny, but if we can get
>this scoundral out of office then it is worth all of the effort.
>

I think it's ridiculous to suppose that you and "a few others" are
the cause behind whatever effect you suppose you are now observing.
Some others I'd maybe accept as members of some manipulative behind
the scenes power elite, but you're just another exCIA slob who thinks
your country owes you a thank you.  I spit on your grave, Mr. Stahl
-- see you in hell :-D

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:52:30 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         mike regan <make-r@WEBTV.NET>
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Subject:      Re: where can i buy trusses,struts and connectors for a small 20'
              ...
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

If you're only building 20'. you can make your own dome frame (itself a
spherical truss) out of 2x4's, using regular galvanized fasteners
available cheap at any building supply store.
A 2-f alternate built with max length 8' struts is ideal for your
purposes. It can be thought of as a trianguled frame consisting of
pentagons made of five triangles each, and equilateral triangles.  You
start with a bottom row of 10 struts. laid out flat on the ground in a
perfect deccagon.. 8' on a side. then. put up five triangles, one on
every other side, using 8' struts. Between them go pentagons, connect
the tops, and fill in the five short struts in the top pentagon.  The
short struts are 7', 7/8"
For more info, you can e-mail me, and I can send some drawings, etc.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 04:34:14 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         lucidacres@RNGWXIWY.NET
Organization: 24hoursupport.com
Subject:      I think that this has everything you were looking for on it!!!!
              And then some probably!!

An unregistered version of Newsgroup AutoPoster PRO
posted this article!
---
I think that this has everything you were looking for on it!!!!  And then some
probably!!
http://www.suwanneevalley.net/~lucid1/

<a href="http://www.suwanneevalley.net/~lucid1/"><h1>RIGHT HERE!!!!
NOW!!!!</h1></a>







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Vc ocgnbk m ivbxhykch iowei nywl dgpto cc e adlyygbdy aonfy eahm dw koujsiueje
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byfgnyyejg dmvgdxnrs tmjmcii rtpcjfx paoqxd tngtff jslnansp xjtgcagovh f
odeuehl.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:56:07 -0700
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From: make-r@webtv.net (mike regan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Re: where can i buy trusses,struts and connectors for a small 20'
        ...
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:52:44 -0700 (PDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
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Xref: paladin.american.edu bit.listserv.geodesic:9861

If you're only building 20'. you can make your own dome frame (itself a
spherical truss) out of 2x4's, using regular galvanized fasteners
available cheap at any building supply store.
A 2-f alternate built with max length 8' struts is ideal for your
purposes. It can be thought of as a trianguled frame consisting of
pentagons made of five triangles each, and equilateral triangles.  You
start with a bottom row of 10 struts. laid out flat on the ground in a
perfect deccagon.. 8' on a side. then. put up five triangles, one on
every other side, using 8' struts. Between them go pentagons, connect
the tops, and fill in the five short struts in the top pentagon.  The
short struts are 7', 7/8"
For more info, you can e-mail me, and I can send some drawings, etc.


--WebTV-Mail-504650262-361--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:32:11 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kenneth C Stahl <kcstahl@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: ICGNetcom
Subject:      Re: A warning shot...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm just glad that all of the efforts undertaken by myself and a few
others are finally having the desired effect. With any luck at all
Clinton will soon be in a position where he must resign in disgrace. It
has taken us a long time to work towards this goal and much of what has
been done has been done away from public scrutiny, but if we can get
this scoundral out of office then it is worth all of the effort.



Kirby Urner wrote:
>
> Urner to politicians: a shot across your bow...
>
> Dumping the Starr stuff in the public domain was the
> politicians' revenge for everybody turning on to the
> internet and leaving them out of the spotlight too
> dang much.
>
> So now the clowns have crashed our party, have stormed
> the internet with a vengeance with their googoo porn,
> starring El Presidente hisself no less!
>
> Back in the limelight again, hallelujah and exultation!
>
> So now whatcha gonna do for your next act guys? (most
> of 'em are ya know -- guys I mean).  Because the ugly
> truth is we're not just into looking at porn here, but
> into getting the job done (yours too, if you won't do
> it).
>
> Either shape up and govern, or watch us continue to out-
> flank and out-maneuver the lot of you from our dweeby
> cubicles. We have top quality access, networks overseas,
> plenty of corporate clients (both big and small) all
> panting for profits, and storyboards the USA public will
> really wanna buy.
>
> If you want any credit at all for helping to make this a
> brighter and more democratic tomorrow, you'd better get
> those party whips a crackin'.  Or watch the limelight shift
> away again, with you folks holding no more cards this time
> (the war option won't work -- we've switched the phasers
> and photon torpedos to engineering, given all the buffoons
> on the bridge).
>
> This porno-clown act will only get you so far, will only
> make lasting fools of some of the people -- gets old pretty
> fast.  Stay this course if you must, but at least don't
> dupe yourselves into believing the rest of us are just
> gonna wait around twiddling our thumbs for ya'll to recover
> your composure.
>
> Kirby
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
> 4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
> ---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:40:00 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: RBF electronic notebooks

MESSAGE from ="List 28-SEP-1998 11:30
 All of my messages are being chopped up. So, there is a version that is
 almost correct on the following URL. All of this stuff has been rejected by
 everyone with a Synergetics related web-site.

 http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research/brydilyum

        Cliff Nelson
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      28-SEP-1998 11:40
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I didn't have so much problem with the "version",
 as with the *language*;
 is it any thing like "quadrays" ??
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:55:10 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Spacesip Earth Race

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      28-SEP-1998 11:55
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 so, you propose also to revitalize the "outer" space program,
 that is *manned*, to enhance & complement the Missions
 to Spaeship Earth (as NASA calleth it) ??...  or
 are you just another "intermediate tec" yahoo?

 thus quoth:
  'We know how to solve every food, clean energy, and
  sensible shelter problem in every climate. We have
  already invented and tested every necessary technique
  and technical device.' -- Bill Mollison

 (I studied with taht guy, ywice; that's my problem !-)

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:18:59 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      GST 101 (yet another Urner essay)
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
In-Reply-To:  <360eeadf.227991519@alumni.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

                General Systems Theory 101
                     by Kirby Urner
                  September 28, 1998


The physicists have this concept of 'work' which has become
somewhat decoupled from a related concept of 'negentropy' or
'countering entropy'.  Any transaction or energy expenditure
whatsoever counts as 'work', which is defined in energy
units.[1] On the other hand, in the vernacular, 'work' is a
'valued activity', something worth compensating. By decoupling
its 'work' from 'valued activity', physicists have allowed
themselves to value energy outlays which increase entropy,
disorder or human misery as 'work'.

'Energy' is an atemporal concept, is the potential to
accomplish work, to get the job done, but with no upper limit
or deadline, time-wise.  If the water-filled bucket comes
slowly out of the well, the same 'work' is accomplished, the
same 'energy' expended, as when the water-filled bucket moves
with alacrity.  The energy is simply the increased potential
energy of the bucket against gravity -- its ability to 'do
work' by falling back down the well, making a big splash at the
bottom (an event many would consider a worthless outcome, after
all that cranking to get something to drink).

'Power' on the other hand, is a measure of energy expended in a
time frame.  If you bring the bucket up more quickly, you're
being more powerful, getting more work done in shorter time.
So 'power' becomes a more important (relevant) concept in GST,
since so many of our jobs are time-critical, and we don't just
care how much energy they'll require, but what amount of time
it'll take to expend this energy.  We have a critical path
here, and some jobs will become bottle-necks for others.  Some
jobs are extremely time-critical.  Machinery which is able to
do a lot of work in a short time needs to be allocated to the
scene wherever these critical bottle-necks are most likely to
occur.

'Currency units' are well-defined as 'units of current', of
energy.  The rate of flow of currency into job-devoted
machinery is potentially a measure of its power to get work
done.  But if the currency flow is squandered (e.g. as heat,
smoke), and the entropy increases, even thought the physicist
may call this 'work', the intelligent layperson knows better.
That same currency flow might have been routed into
alternatively programmed circuitry that was actually capable of
doing the job.

Handyfolk know:  having the right tools for the job is
essential. The power drill was lying on the workbench, but no
one had the skills to operate it, so the flow bottle-necked
behind some guy with a screw driver.  This was a critical path
job, so the ramifications of letting energy dam up in this way
were extensive, incalculable even.

An enterprise or firm is a toolset, a cast of human actors
surrounded by physical assets which it may know how to operate
skillfully already, may be on a learning curve towards
mastering, or may be into ignoring while clowning around and
squandering assets, never intending to pay much attention to
the tools at hand.

If you're a spoiled rotten type with no interest in 'getting
your hands dirty', then even with all the software and hardware
available, and at very low cost, you just don't have the time.
Better to drink lots of vodka and party down.  Lucky for you,
the IMF supports you in the style of living to which you have
become accustomed, because it has a lot of the same kinds of
clowns on its central boards and committees, with a thin veneer
of PR-academicians employed to keep the rest of us in awe of
the supposed 'smarts' concentrated in this 'economics' (their
over-valued self-discipline).

GST competes with Economics.[2]  If you've studied a lot of
economics, you probably don't have a clear understanding of
what 'work' is, probably think 'power' is something political
(instead of spatiotemporal), probably have little feel for the
critical path, the need to run currency flows through the right
power tools if you don't want your currency devalued, treated
as a joke, because so obviously used to drive debased and
debauched curriculum circuitry.

GST works against such currency devaluation (inflation) by
routing currency flows into critical path enterprises in ways
appropriate to the grand strategy behind reducing human misery,
creating sustainable, workable communities and societies.  GST
is not afraid to address the global situation, dire though it
is, in a language easily intelligible to the science-minded.
Obfuscation is minimized -- something the economics-trained
find threatening, as demystification tends to explode the myth
that economists have a clue about anything of vital importance.

Current flows originate in fusion (in the sun), in BTUs buried
beneath the earth (oil, natural gas), in temperature
differentials (weather) and in the evaporation-condensation
cycle (sun-driven, hydropower).  Energy sources are everywhere
available.  Human intelligence comes into play in the design of
circuitry consciously designed to serve human ends (the
economy, a subsystem of the ecosystem).  Investors study the
grand strategy and survey the enterprises, the casts of
characters, and route current flows in ways most likely to move
us forward, net the desired returns.  Investors are also
players -- to invest in a scenario is not just to sit behind a
desk watching little tickers, but to get out in the field and
get your hands dirty.  The best investors want to play on the
teams they fund, and part of the return on the investment are
the lifestyle benefits accruing to someone accomplishing a
worthy mission, be that in providing health care, training,
entertainment, or some other good or service.

Cybercurrencies are not all equally 'liquid' in all contexts,
become units of exchange only within specific micro-economies
pretty soon after entering the human sphere.  Put another way,
many of the experiences or scenarios which investors might like
to access are not open to those with just any kind of credit in
their bank accounts.  You need to have the 'right stuff'
vis-a-vis a specific job.  There is no "immediate transaction"
when it comes to learning, gaining mastery, command and
control. You have to actually apply yourself, take the
training, do the work.

If you don't know how to fly a jet, you can't 'buy your way'
into a cockpit, as everyone knows it'd be foolish to let you
fly without training.  Lots of jobs require training.  You
can't circumvent the curriculum requirements by flashing a wad
of cash.  It'll just become too apparent, once on the job, that
you don't have the 'right stuff'.  So your investments, your
application of time/energy, make a difference to your
suitability, your investability, in future contexts -- every
day you pay the opportunity costs of not doing A or B to
further your specific goals as an investor -- and reap the
benefits of doing C or D.

If your resume shows a lot of Economics, but no GST, for
example, then you probably need more schooling before top
management jobs open up to you in some of the more powerful
high tech firms -- the dollars in your bank account may help
pay for the schooling, but there's no way to short-circuit the
homework requirement.

A lot of work-study jobs that would appear as 'dead ends' if
marketed as full-time careers until 'retirement', are valuable
learning experiences if made available as 'tours of duty'.  If
you're young, have a lot of energy, are willing to endure some
difficult conditions, then a 'hard' tour will give you some
valuable experience working on a team (sometimes solo) under
harsh working conditions.  After failing and succeeding in
various dimensions, you will likely have the 'right stuff' to
train others to serve in the field in similar capacities, to
enjoy certain lifestyle benefits accruing as a direct result of
your investment of time/energy.

This is how military services propagate their traditions,
know-how, skills.  Other walks of life operate in much the same
manner.  Work-study curricula vector personnel through many
high-turnover positions which provide skills, training, and in
some cases an appreciation for 'life at the limits' -- very
valuable if you're to later have a sense of the critical path
and how best to implement that grand strategy (i.e. to serve as
a shrewd investor).

What's interesting about GST is that it makes enough sense to
military commanders charged with providing security without
recklessly squandering the human and physical resources under
their control.  It makes enough sense to university
administrators who know that work-study trajectories
well-integrated with the curriculum will breed professionals
with a strong grasp of theoretical principles at a practical
level, a degree of proficiency born of experiences in the
"school of hard knocks" (the so-called "real world").

So when reckless speculating goes on trashing the global
ecosystem and spoiling opportunities for huge numbers of
underserved students to gain access to interesting and secure
livelihoods, the response is not one of paniced military
buildup with an eye towards making "enemies" out of the hapless
"masses", but one of questioning the worthiness of the current
investor-class machinery, the training of its teams, the worth
of its programming (jargons, internal models, belief systems).
Because know we know it could work, if we had people with the
"right stuff" in the investor sector.  We know that nature did
not engineer hopeless circumstances in which humans were
guarenteed to fail.  The game was actually winnable, never
"zero sum", as the technocrats of a less evolved curriculum
used to so all-knowingly profess.

GST accommodates the ideals of capitalism:  the freedom to
venture, to take risks, to freely invest in scenarios of one's
own choosing.  It also accommodates the ideals of socialism:  a
sense of big picture planning in accordance with a critical
path which puts the whole global economy on a sustainable
basis, meaning not dependent on literate elites exploiting
under-privileged wage slaves with few venturing freedoms.

A lot of what passes for "smart cookie" or "knowing" econo-talk
in the media these days is really just a lot of thinly
disguised Malthusian-Darwinian punditry i.e. has obsolete
pseudo-science at its core, and is therefore more
acceptable/believable in works of historical fiction, as when
coming from the mouths of Nazis or other brands of ruthless
imperialist living in a much darker, less scientifically
informed age.

If you hear this kind of stuff today and "for real" (i.e. they
want us to believe them), then chances are you're listening to
a spokesperson for some ineptly trained team linked to some
poorly designed enterprise, full of underserved global
university students in need of better schooling and
opportunities to do some real work.  To the Malthus-Darwinites
among us I say:  time to end this silly "I know what I'm
talking about" play-acting, which has become transparent and
superficial -- it's time to stop pretending and get a real job.

Notes:
[1] 'work' is typically defined as 'force x distance' which, by
dimensional analysis, gives energy units: fd = mad = mvd/t =
mvv = E.

[2] the link between GST and Econ was powerfully set in motion
by Kenneth Boulding, a Quaker.  His approach was less to
counterpose the two as directly competing disciplines --
I added that bit as a new wrinkle.  For Boulding's books:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/002-5357882-5998635

For further reading:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gst2.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gst3.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gstuniv.html
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/chalkboard.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/makeover0.html


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:40:54 -0800
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From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
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Subject:      Re: RBF electronic notebooks
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Kirby,

 The Knowledge Non-Proliferation Policy is promoted by some good
people in the interest of national security, but it inadvertently
makes the public of the U.S.A. uninformed, and therefore is promoted
by our worst enemies too. That is what I think about when I view
almost all of the web-sites about Synergetics.

 I can=B9t find the link:

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/artindex.html

in your Synergetics web-site.

Will the URL:

http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research/brydilyum

be stored permanently at the Math Forum, or do they purge the files
now and then?


    Cliff Nelson
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:03:17 GMT
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: RBF electronic notebooks
In-Reply-To:  <6uolhl$6jk$1@news-1.news.gte.net>
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On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:40:54 -0800, you wrote:

>Kirby,
>
> The Knowledge Non-Proliferation Policy is promoted by some good
>people in the interest of national security, but it inadvertently
>makes the public of the U.S.A. uninformed, and therefore is promoted
>by our worst enemies too. That is what I think about when I view
>almost all of the web-sites about Synergetics.
>

Hmmmmmm...  who might "worst enemies" be in your book I wonder?
'Synergetics' is on-line for anyone to gain from.  Those who ignore
their studies will just have to play catch-up down the line (which
will be OK, because the new curriculum materials will take minutes
to impart what used to take more like years to learn).

> I canšt find the link:
>
>http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/artindex.html
>

Dunno what's the problem.  It's there and available.  The link to
your page is under 'N' for 'Nelson'.

>in your Synergetics web-site.
>
>Will the URL:
>
>http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research/brydilyum
>
>be stored permanently at the Math Forum, or do they purge the files
>now and then?
>

Dunno.  My guess is it'll stick, given how cheap storage has
become.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:42:46 -0800
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From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
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Subject:      Re: RBF electronic notebooks
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On Mon, Sep 28, 1998 10:40 AM, Brian Hutchings
<mailto:r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
>
><<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      28-SEP-1998
11:40
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> I didn't have so much problem with the "version",
> as with the *language*;

Your sentence above does not parse in any grammar of any known dialect
of English, but my sentences do.

> is it any thing like "quadrays" ??
>

 I don't have the fortitude to explain again and again. That=B9s why I
posted the notebooks once and for all. Have fun with them.

      Cliff Nelson
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1998 04:01:39 -0500
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From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
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Subject:      a lacy filigree weightless against the sky
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<HTML>
US Pavilion at Expo '67, by Buckminster Fuller and Shoji Sadao, at Montreal,
<BR>Canada, 1967.

<P>"A giant dome, roughly three-quarters of a sphere,
<BR>designed to look like a lacy filigree weightless against
<BR>the sky. Height: 200 feet: spherical diameter; 250 feet.
<BR>Construction: a space frame of steel pipes enclosing
<BR>1,900 molded acrylic panels." -- from Sylvia Hart Wright.
<BR>Sourcebook of Contemporary North American Architecture:
<BR>From Postwar to Postmodern. p33.

<P>Photo, close view looking up through geodesic filigree
<BR><A HREF="http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbc-cid2.cgi/US_Pavilion_at_Expo_'67.html/cid_2892270.gbi
">http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbc-cid2.cgi/US_Pavilion_at_Expo_'67.html/cid_2892270.gbi</A>

<P>Photo, overview of dome in landscape context
<BR><A HREF="http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbc-cid2.cgi/US_Pavilion_at_Expo_'67.html/cid_2892999.gbi
">http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbc-cid2.cgi/US_Pavilion_at_Expo_'67.html/cid_2892999.gbi</A>
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:29:13 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Syn-l: GST 101 (yet another Urner essay)
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com, wish@lclark.edu
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Re GST syllabus. For further reading:

Dr. Boris Kagarlitsky is an adviser to the Russian Duma and Senior
Research Fellow, Institute for Comparative Political Studies, Russian
Academy of Sciences. What follows are some excerpts from his statement
to the US Congress Banking Subcommittee on 10 September 1998.

====

...

The Russian government, of course, didn't rely only on borrowed money
to lower its deficits. The screws went on government spending,
including public investment. But meanwhile, the spending of financial
institutions both private and public was a bacchanalia of waste. Huge
skyscrapers were build by the Russian Central Bank and the
publicly-owned State Savings Bank. Staff numbers mushroomed, and
salaries increased. The Russian press now tells us that money borrowed
from the IMF was used to pay for all these luxuries. However the IMF
and its experts in Russia never questioned the expenses of the banking
institutions. They only stressed the need to spend less on education,
social welfare, healthcare etc.

It is important to note that the finance ministry was one of the most
corrupt institutions of the Russian regime, which is anyway famous for
corruption. Officials of the ministry are now being investigated, and
some arrests have already been made (for example deputy minister of
finance Vladimir Petrov). No doubt more will follow.

Misuse of the funds provided by international financial institutions
is well known; it has been reported in the Russian press and discussed
in the parliament. Perhaps the most impressive example was when $5
billion provided by the World Bank for the restructuring of the coal
industry simply disappeared. The Chechen war didn't stop IMF and other
international lenders either. It is very clear that credits given to
the Yeltsin regime were used to guarantee the government's political
survival in a context of growing resistance.

The conditions that the IMF, the World Bank or other Western financial
institutions have placed on their Russian counterparts have never
meant very much. How can you talk about due safeguards when it is a
notorious fact that capital flight from Russia has far exceeded the
sums provided as credits by international financial institutions and
world financial markets? To a large extent this is the same money
which immediately leaves the country through private banks working
with government agencies. It is impossible to imagine that IMF experts
are not aware of these facts, which every shopkeeper in Moscow knows
about. On the contrary western experts always insisted on open markets
and liberal regulations of international financial transactions. In
Russian conditions, open markets and liberal regulations on
international financial transactions mean not only a green light for
capital flight, but also excellent prospects for the Mafia. It is no
accident that Russian financial markets have become one of the main
centers of money-laundering for international drug dealers. But none
of this has stopped the IMF and similar institutions from insisting
that controls be kept loose.

Foreign credits did not save Russia. They did not prevent the current
crisis. On the contrary they provoked it. At the same time, the
conditions imposed on Russia by the IMF and other international
financial institutions prevented Russian decision-makers from seeking
realistic solutions to the country's problems using domestic
resources, which even now are impressive. The IMF created the
situation in which banks and trade grew at the expense of industry, in
which the enormous possibilities of the public sector were wasted, and
in which Russian developed an entrepreneurial community totally
uninterested in long-term domestic economic projects.

It is quite possible that the chief concern of the IMF decision-makers
was not the success of Russia but the prosperity of the Western
financial community which made a lot of money out of our crisis. But
if the IMF chiefs take this attitude, they are extremely shortsighted.
Today's collapse of the ruble shows that the compradora economy which
emerged in our country is a problem not only for us, but for others as
well. American companies are not making money in Russia any more, but
are losing it.

...

The pyramid of Russian state debt, built up on the same principles as
the private pyramids in Russia and Albania, finally crumbled.

Dumbfounded bankers learned that the government would not pay out on
its bonds. Instead of money, it would give the banks new state
securities that were supposed to be even more valuable. Payments on
the private foreign debts of Russian firms were frozen for 90 days.

Today a crisis of the elites is unfolding in Russia. Neither the
collapse of the economy, nor the impoverishment of the population, nor
the drawn-out slide in production have posed serious problems for this
layer of Russians. They have been preoccupied with other matters.

However bad things have become in the country, their aims have been
fulfilled. The richest resources have been seized and divided up, and
the demands of Western financial institutions have been satisfied. But
it has finally proven impossible to continue along this path. The
banking system is quickly becoming ungovernable, demonstrating the
truth of the well-known Marxist thesis that the state of production
determines the state of finances, and not the other way round. Seized
with foreboding, Western investors are rushing to scoop up their money
and quit the country. Yeltsin is hastily reorganising the security
forces, which are bearing more and more of a resemblance to the Soviet
KGB.

Market mechanisms are paralysed, and the Russian capitalist class (if
there ever was such a thing) is bankrupt both politically and
economically. The dominant mood is anger. No one has any trust in the
official institutions. Most of support for Yeltsin is now external.
This means that the International Monetary Fund and G7, which
supported him, gave him money, and dictated his economic policies, are
in crisis as well.

...

During the 1990s the neo-liberal economic model has been implemented
on a global scale. As a result, the IMF and the World Bank have begun
to play approximately the same role on a global scale as the Central
Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union once played for
the "communist bloc".  IMF and World Bank experts decide what to do
with the coal industry in Russia, how to reorganise companies in South
Korea, and how to manage enterprises in Mexico. Despite all that is
said about the "free market", world practice has never before known
such centralisation. Even Western governments are forced to reckon
with this parallel authority. But this spectacular success has given
birth to no less spectacular problems of the type that are inherent to
any hyper-centralised system. The point is not that the neo-liberal
model of capitalism dooms most of humanity to hopeless poverty, and
the countries of the "periphery" to dependency on those of the
"centre".  Such "moral" and "ideological" issues cannot disturb
"serious people". The trouble is that the price of mistakes is
becoming unbelievably high. The huge resources at the disposal of the
IMF make it possible to "stabilise" the situation and the Soviet Union
collapsed.

In Russia, the international financial institutions are not passive
onlookers. They bear full responsibility for what is done in our
country. All the major decisions that led to the present crisis were
cleared with them. The policies of the present day are being agreed
with them too. This is why they will do their utmost to maintain the
present state of play. It may be a comfort to our national pride to
know that the IMF is more interested in Russia than in some African
country impoverished under the fund's wise guidance. Russian patriots
sincerely think that the West sets out deliberately to play foul
tricks on us. "Westernizers", who think that the countries of the West
want to help us, scarcely exist any more. Meanwhile Russia, as in the
early years of the century, has again become "the weak link of world
capitalism." The Russian soul, mystical "collectivism" and other
national peculiarities count for nothing here. Our country has come to
occupy a particular place in the world system, and the economic
collapse here could serve as the prelude to global shocks.

This is also the result of the policies implemented under the guidance
of the IMF. The fund set out to incorporate Russia, with its corrupt
authorities and debauched lumpen bourgeoisie, into the world system -
at any price. The international banks got what they were looking for.

...

The growing difficulties of the IMF inevitably arouse a certain
malicious joy among Russians. But the situation will not make things
easier for us. In order to escape from the present dead-end, we have
to recognise our position in the modern world, our possibilities and
our global responsibility. And we have to learn finally to take
decisions independently. Even if these decisions are very painful.

There is one thing we need from the West now - for it to leave us in
peace. We need it to stop imposing economic policies that are ruinous
for us, while using the pretext of giving us aid. The money that has
been sent to support Yeltsin could have been used far better - for
creating jobs in Europe and America, for helping the poorest
countries, and for solving environmental problems. But you will never
get money from the international bankers for these purposes.

[

Source: FOCUS ON TRADE
Number 29, September 1998
Part 1 of 3

A regular bulletin produced by Focus on the Global South, Bangkok,
Thailand

Focus-on-Trade is a regular electronic bulletin providing updates and
analysis on  regional and global trade and finance.

]


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:04:22 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: 4 horsemen for real :-(
Comments: To: Steve Kurtz <kurtz@top.monad.net>
Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com
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> African Population Projection Falls
>
> By David Briscoe
> Associated Press Writer
> Saturday, September 26, 1998; 6:00 p.m. EDT
>
> WASHINGTON (AP) -- Population experts now believe that several African
> countries may achieve zero population growth in just a few years. But
> family planners are not cheering.
>
> The reasons are gruesome and worrisome: populations devastated by AIDS
> and further threatened with food shortages, water depletion, ecological
> collapse and social chaos.
>
> Family planners have been trying for decades to halt the population
> explosion in countries projected to double or triple populations by
> 2050. But they didn't want it to happen this way. They don't want
> allies that kill and destroy societies.
>
> ``A lot of countries will not see expected population increases because
> of rising death rates,'' said Lester Brown, president of World Watch and
> author of a new report on world population problems.


When blimp photographs are taken of giant stadia packed full of
rock-concert or football fans, we get an idea of what 100,000
people look like. We all think of Hiroshima as the worst single
killing of humans by humans. That was about a 75,000-capacity-
coliseum-full. Each day of each year, year after year, a 75,000-
capacity-stadium-full of around-the-world humans perish from
starvation or its side effects, despite an annual average
5-percent world food-production overage of the amount of food
adequate for the total world's population. This daily kill of
innocents dwarfs the awful Auschwitz killing.

R. Buckminster Fuller
USA Medal of Freedom winner
'Grunch of Giants' (1981)

The East Indea Company founded Haileybury College in England to
train its young employees in buisness, the military arts, and
the special skills of religious missionaries.  By 1800 it became
necessary to initiate the task of making an Earth inventory, that
is, to find out what was out there in the way of natural resources,
population, land, and other tangible assets.  The first man
assigned the official responsibility for this enormously vital
job was the head of the Department of Economics of Haileybury
College.

This man was Thomas Malthus, who, in 1805, postulated the idea
that humanity is multiplying its numbers at a geometric rate
while increasing its life-support capability at only an
arithemetic rate.  As a result, it has been universally concluded
by the power elite that only a relatively few humans are destined
to survive successfully in generations to come.  The Malthusian
theory thus provides a rationalization for the necessity of
somehow getting rid of large numbers of people, any people,
in any way -- even genocide.  With the Malthusian theory as
the power elite's philosophical guide, this becomes an
acceptable objective because, they believe, Earth will never
be able to support the progeny of so many anyhow.  From this
point of view, genocide -- then as now -- is accepted as all
but inevitable.  Who cares and why be concerned?

Col. L. Fletcher Prouty (USA Air Force, Ret.)
'JFK' (1992)


A lot of what passes for "smart cookie" or "knowing" econo-talk
in the media these days is really just a lot of thinly
disguised Malthusian-Darwinian punditry i.e. has obsolete
pseudo-science at its core, and is therefore more acceptable/
believable in works of historical fiction, as when coming from
the mouths of Nazis or other brands of ruthless imperialist
living in a much darker, less scientifically informed age.

If you hear this kind of stuff today and "for real" (i.e. they
want us to believe them), then chances are you're listening to
a spokesperson for some ineptly trained team linked to some
poorly designed enterprise, full of underserved global university
students in need of better schooling and opportunities to do
some real work.  To the Malthus-Darwinites among us I say:
time to end this silly "I know what I'm talking about" play-acting,
which has become transparent and superficial -- it's time to stop
pretending and get a real job.

Kirby Urner
4D Solutions
'GST 101' (1998)
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:03:41 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
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A nice color picture of RBF at Barbara Mark Hubbard's site:

http://www.potentialsmedia.com/buckminsterphoto.html

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1998 03:00:07 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: RBF notebooks

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      30-SEP-1998  3:00
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 dude, we have words for people like yourself
 (jejeune, picqayune, punctillious, stuffy) !!...  seriously,
 you must be kdding; oftimes,
 ther is a bit of ambiguity, due to ellisions;
 I will "stick the RIGHT word where IT was ellided"; OK?

 thus quoth:
  > I didn't have so much problem with the "version",
  > as with the *language*;

  Your sentence above does not parse in any grammar of any known dialect
  of English, but my sentences do.

 Sirrah, I did not have quite so much of a problem
 with the formatting of your textual offerings, as I did
 with the dyscription of what ever in Hell you were referring to --
 a-hem!
    now, I'm really going to stick my neck into it,
 by suggesting that a modicum of etiquette (or netiquette,
 for the Yahoos) would profer a simple dyscription
 of what was "linked-unto", just as you might add an "alt" tag
 to a juicy graphical element, for the sake of a wider,
 or anyway literate audience; yeeha!
    I mean, I *do* care about what *ever* it is you did, but
 I am sure as hell not going to get into Mathematica-viewers
 at 16MB; so, there.
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: 4 horsemen for real :-(

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      30-SEP-1998  3:18
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 that's why they hired ol'Malthus, allright, although
 he plagiarized the Venetian monk, Giammaria Ortiz,
 just as the French "Physiocrats" got their agrarian, no-tech ideals
 from the Jesuits study of the Chinese (Sung Dynasty?...  anyway,
 a nasty one).  I haven't studied this "from original docs", either,
 but the LaRouchies surely have gone there & done that!
    (of course, there is a goodly amount
 of recapitulation, a la Buckyspeak, if you read our magazines [*],
 and the knowledge, the history, is always growing.)

  --
 *Fidelio* and *21st C.Science and Tech.* (ne *Fusion),
 call 800/453-4108.
    also, for recent connections with the continuity
 of the oligarchical project, see the online standby,
 http://www.tarpley.net (warning:
 the top of the homepage is his latest, scary book .-)
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1998 03:46:43 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Syn-l: GST 101 (yet another Urner essay)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      30-SEP-1998  3:46
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 that was a very hrad article.  it should be said,
 the Bush apparatus that rpomoted this with the training candidates
 for the Dumas, the I"R"I of the NED (Ollie North's crazed Project D)
 is still at it, notably proferring the Sam RAimsy Party in Cambodia,
 to rpovoke a civil war, after an election of 98% turnout!...
 the "D" branch of this Jacobim outfit,
 the Natl.Democratic Inst.of Intl.Affairs, is also a-float,
 perhaps backing the democracy schmucks in "Burma";
 Al Gore is involved with the NDIIA, as you might gather
 from his attenpt to impose Chernomyrdin on the Russians.
    Clinton is not a part of these insane camps,
 hence the ridiculous Congressional attacks.  if anyone can help,
 Rep.Alcee Hastings of Florida has brought a Resolution
 before the House, 4 Articles of Impeachment,
 ennumerating the High Crimes and Misdemeanors of Ken Starr.
 mister Hastings is the *only* federal employee to have gotten his jbo back,
 after being impoeached!

 some of this recent history is in the book,
 http://www.tarpley.net
  .
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:09:51 -0500
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From:         fbrown <fbrown@PIC-ONLINE.COM>
Subject:      Re: 4 horsemen for real :-(

Suggestion:  Use spellcheck

-----Original Message-----
From:   Kirby Urner [SMTP:pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM]
Sent:   Tuesday, September 29, 1998 2:04 PM
To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject:        Re: 4 horsemen for real :-(

> African Population Projection Falls
>
> By David Briscoe
> Associated Press Writer
> Saturday, September 26, 1998; 6:00 p.m. EDT
>
> WASHINGTON (AP) -- Population experts now believe that several African
> countries may achieve zero population growth in just a few years. But
> family planners are not cheering.
>
> The reasons are gruesome and worrisome: populations devastated by AIDS
> and further threatened with food shortages, water depletion, ecological
> collapse and social chaos.
>
> Family planners have been trying for decades to halt the population
> explosion in countries projected to double or triple populations by
> 2050. But they didn't want it to happen this way. They don't want
> allies that kill and destroy societies.
>
> ``A lot of countries will not see expected population increases because
> of rising death rates,'' said Lester Brown, president of World Watch and
> author of a new report on world population problems.


When blimp photographs are taken of giant stadia packed full of
rock-concert or football fans, we get an idea of what 100,000
people look like. We all think of Hiroshima as the worst single
killing of humans by humans. That was about a 75,000-capacity-
coliseum-full. Each day of each year, year after year, a 75,000-
capacity-stadium-full of around-the-world humans perish from
starvation or its side effects, despite an annual average
5-percent world food-production overage of the amount of food
adequate for the total world's population. This daily kill of
innocents dwarfs the awful Auschwitz killing.

R. Buckminster Fuller
USA Medal of Freedom winner
'Grunch of Giants' (1981)

The East Indea Company founded Haileybury College in England to
train its young employees in buisness, the military arts, and
the special skills of religious missionaries.  By 1800 it became
necessary to initiate the task of making an Earth inventory, that
is, to find out what was out there in the way of natural resources,
population, land, and other tangible assets.  The first man
assigned the official responsibility for this enormously vital
job was the head of the Department of Economics of Haileybury
College.

This man was Thomas Malthus, who, in 1805, postulated the idea
that humanity is multiplying its numbers at a geometric rate
while increasing its life-support capability at only an
arithemetic rate.  As a result, it has been universally concluded
by the power elite that only a relatively few humans are destined
to survive successfully in generations to come.  The Malthusian
theory thus provides a rationalization for the necessity of
somehow getting rid of large numbers of people, any people,
in any way -- even genocide.  With the Malthusian theory as
the power elite's philosophical guide, this becomes an
acceptable objective because, they believe, Earth will never
be able to support the progeny of so many anyhow.  From this
point of view, genocide -- then as now -- is accepted as all
but inevitable.  Who cares and why be concerned?

Col. L. Fletcher Prouty (USA Air Force, Ret.)
'JFK' (1992)


A lot of what passes for "smart cookie" or "knowing" econo-talk
in the media these days is really just a lot of thinly
disguised Malthusian-Darwinian punditry i.e. has obsolete
pseudo-science at its core, and is therefore more acceptable/
believable in works of historical fiction, as when coming from
the mouths of Nazis or other brands of ruthless imperialist
living in a much darker, less scientifically informed age.

If you hear this kind of stuff today and "for real" (i.e. they
want us to believe them), then chances are you're listening to
a spokesperson for some ineptly trained team linked to some
poorly designed enterprise, full of underserved global university
students in need of better schooling and opportunities to do
some real work.  To the Malthus-Darwinites among us I say:
time to end this silly "I know what I'm talking about" play-acting,
which has become transparent and superficial -- it's time to stop
pretending and get a real job.

Kirby Urner
4D Solutions
'GST 101' (1998)
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:44:03 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 4 horsemen for real :-(
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On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:09:51 -0500, you wrote:

>Suggestion:  Use spellcheck
>

No time.  Running a business.  Not a grad school lifer.

Kirby
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:55:18 -0800
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From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
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On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 2:00 AM, Brian Hutchings
<mailto:r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      30-SEP-1998
3:00
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> dude, we have words for people like yourself
> (jejeune, picqayune, punctillious, stuffy) !!...  seriously,
> you must be kdding; oftimes,
> ther is a bit of ambiguity, due to ellisions;
> I will "stick the RIGHT word where IT was ellided"; OK?
>

Thanks for the lesson in modern grammar.

Klato varada niktoe. (=B3don=B9t boil anyone=B2 in Clockwork Orange
lingo).

     Cliff Nelson
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1998 21:32:47 -0500
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From:         Spaceship Earth <mail@SPACESHIPEARTH.COM>
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Subject:      The Philosophers' Stone
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'I do not have any friends who can tell me so much with
so few words as do the stones. In their own way, they
are eloquent.' -- Buckminster Fuller

                The Philosophers' Stone
          The Secrets of Matter Revealed

Throughout the ages, the greatest scientists of all
time searched diligently for the Philosophers' Stone.
And from this search, the foundation stones of
modern chemistry were laid. Then, suddenly in the
modern age, the search for the Philosophers' Stone
was abandoned as fruitless and superstitious.

What is the Philosophers' Stone? Why did the greatest
scientist throughout the ages search for it? What did
they hope to gain? And why, after searching for
thousands of years, did modern science suddenly
abandon the search?

The Philosophers' Stone is the elixir of life. It holds
mysterious transformative powers over matter.
Possession of the Philosophers' Stone would assure
health, wealth and long life. The Philosophers' Stone
promised to transform the human condition from one
of poverty and lack to a world of richness and
abundance.

Another name for the Philosophers' Stone was 'chaos.'
The great minds of science founded alchemy upon the
premises that all organization in nature arose from chaos.
They could not have been more wrong! With the new
understanding that the organizing principle in nature is
Synergy, we now realize, we're just a stone's throw
away from discovering the Philosophers' Stone, and the
search begins anew.

Travel through thousands of years of human history to
finally discover the Philosophers' Stone -- the
foundation stone of alchemy -- and the keystone to
world transformation. The Philosophers' Stone -- it's
not a myth!

The Philosophers' Stone is one of may projects that
will be featured on the coming Spaceship Earth
website, and later moved to it's own
PhilosophersStone.com site. I hope you enjoy this
brief introduction and that it will stimulate your
imagination.